Catholic Salvation


#1

I’m trying to understand what you guys soteriology. So let me see if I understand correctly:

Bob is a pagan. Father Pater the Jesuit meets Bob while doing missions in France. Pater preaches Christ, his resurrection and coming judgment. Bob, not wanting to face the wrath of God, decides to leave his paganism and join the Church. This act of Faith came by the Holy Spirit who produced the Faith in him and he cooperated with. Bob goes through a RCIA class and is Baptized on Easter Sunday where in the sacramental waters he is born again and his original sin washed away. Now he is in a state of Grace, where he will work out his salvation by cooperating with the grace of God. By faithfully partaking of the Eucharist and by Prayer Christ will work in him, producing works of love. These works of love that Christ works through him purify his soul and make him ready to enter Heaven. Bob finally dies at a good old age, and based on how purified his soul is will enter either Heaven or Purgatory. If it was completely purified he will go straight to Heaven, if not he will be purified in the fires of Purgatory temporarily. Lastly, Bob awaits in Heaven for the resurrection of his body to enter the Eternal State where God’s Kingdom will be finished and creation restored.

If Bob had died before Baptism, he would still go to Purgatory, as he did not reject Baptism, but only had not received it yet.

Had Bob while in his state of Grace, lusted, or murdered, or became greedy he would commit a mortal sin and if he died without seeing the sacrament of Penance he would go to Hell. If he committed any other minor infraction or venial sin he would still need to seek penance, but if he did not then he would stay in Purgatory a little longer.

So, is this scenario I wrote up accurate?


#2

I’d say that’s a pretty good summary.


#3

Bob will need to be confirmed at some point, to receive the
Holy Spirit…

:slight_smile:


#4

[quote=Knight4God]I’m trying to understand what you guys soteriology. So let me see if I understand correctly:

Bob is a pagan. Father Pater the Jesuit meets Bob while doing missions in France. Pater preaches Christ, his resurrection and coming judgment. Bob, not wanting to face the wrath of God, decides to leave his paganism and join the Church. This act of Faith came by the Holy Spirit who produced the Faith in him and he cooperated with. Bob goes through a RCIA class and is Baptized on Easter Sunday where in the sacramental waters he is born again and his original sin washed away. Now he is in a state of Grace, where he will work out his salvation by cooperating with the grace of God. By faithfully partaking of the Eucharist and by Prayer Christ will work in him, producing works of love. These works of love that Christ works through him purify his soul and make him ready to enter Heaven. Bob finally dies at a good old age, and based on how purified his soul is will enter either Heaven or Purgatory. If it was completely purified he will go straight to Heaven, if not he will be purified in the fires of Purgatory temporarily. Lastly, Bob awaits in Heaven for the resurrection of his body to enter the Eternal State where God’s Kingdom will be finished and creation restored.

If Bob had died before Baptism, he would still go to Purgatory, as he did not reject Baptism, but only had not received it yet.

Had Bob while in his state of Grace, lusted, or murdered, or became greedy he would commit a mortal sin and if he died without seeing the sacrament of Penance he would go to Hell. If he committed any other minor infraction or venial sin he would still need to seek penance, but if he did not then he would stay in Purgatory a little longer.

So, is this scenario I wrote up accurate?
[/quote]

Pretty good.


#5

That needs to be qualified. If Bob was sorry and repentant of the mortal sin that he committed, he would receive immediate forgiveness from the eternal punisment due this sin because of his contrition. Bob, as a faithful Catholic, would have the desire to receive the Sacrament of Reconciliation as soon as possible, but if he died before that was possible, he would not be condemned to Hell. Many Catholics live in remote places where they may see a priest once a year at best! God would not condemn someone to Hell merely because they lived in a place where there are no priests to hear confession (e.g. Catholics who died in the Soviet gulag).

If he committed any other minor infraction or venial sin he would still need to seek penance, but if he did not then he would stay in Purgatory a little longer.

That needs to be qualified too. Confession of venial sins is not required, as is the confession of mortal sins. Nonetheless, confession of venial sins is a recommended practice because it helps us grow in sanctity.**Catechism of the Catholic Church

1458** Without being strictly necessary, confession of everyday faults (venial sins) is nevertheless strongly recommended by the Church. Indeed the regular confession of our venial sins helps us form our conscience, fight against evil tendencies, let ourselves be healed by Christ and progress in the life of the Spirit.


#6

A similar qualifier for baptism: Once the decision is made to believe in the Gospel and be baptized, if the person were to die before his baptism, we would speak of a “baptism of desire”. His intent was there, he wasn’t procrastinating, and God can read his heart.


#7

[quote=Knight4God]I’m trying to understand what you guys soteriology. So let me see if I understand correctly:

Bob is a pagan. Father Pater the Jesuit meets Bob while doing missions in France. Pater preaches Christ, his resurrection and coming judgment. Bob, not wanting to face the wrath of God, decides to leave his paganism and join the Church. This act of Faith came by the Holy Spirit who produced the Faith in him and he cooperated with. Bob goes through a RCIA class and is Baptized on Easter Sunday where in the sacramental waters he is born again and his original sin washed away. Now he is in a state of Grace, where he will work out his salvation by cooperating with the grace of God. By faithfully partaking of the Eucharist and by Prayer Christ will work in him, producing works of love. These works of love that Christ works through him purify his soul and make him ready to enter Heaven. Bob finally dies at a good old age, and based on how purified his soul is will enter either Heaven or Purgatory. If it was completely purified he will go straight to Heaven, if not he will be purified in the fires of Purgatory temporarily. Lastly, Bob awaits in Heaven for the resurrection of his body to enter the Eternal State where God’s Kingdom will be finished and creation restored.
If Bob had died before Baptism, he would still go to Purgatory, as he did not reject Baptism, but only had not received it yet.
Had Bob while in his state of Grace, lusted, or murdered, or became greedy he would commit a mortal sin and if he died without seeing the sacrament of Penance he would go to Hell. If he committed any other minor infraction or venial sin he would still need to seek penance, but if he did not then he would stay in Purgatory a little longer.
So, is this scenario I wrote up accurate?
[/quote]

This is very simplistic. The Catholic faith is so much more spiritualy rewarding and richer than the way it is portrayed here.


#8

The key thing to understand here, as Scripture points out, is repentance, “Repent, turn from your sins, and be saved.” Only with repentance comes forgiveness.


#9

[quote=johnshelby]Bob will need to be confirmed at some point, to receive the
Holy Spirit…

:slight_smile:
[/quote]

Even if he has been Baptized as an adult? I thought confirmation was for those who had been Baptized as infants and hence “confirmed” as following their Baptismal vows.


#10

[quote=Knight4God]Even if he has been Baptized as an adult? I thought confirmation was for those who had been Baptized as infants and hence “confirmed” as following their Baptismal vows.
[/quote]

No, through confirmation we are “confirmed” (strengthened) in the Holy Ghost. We do receive the Holy Ghost at baptism, but are strengthened in the gifts of the Holy Ghost at confirmation.

There are actually three “sacraments of initiation” into the Church: Baptism, the Eucharist, and confirmation.

Just curious, what is your religion? And what got you interested in the Catholic Church?


#11

[quote=USMC]No, through confirmation we are “confirmed” (strengthened) in the Holy Ghost. We do receive the Holy Ghost at baptism, but are strengthened in the gifts of the Holy Ghost at confirmation.

There are actually three “sacraments of initiation” into the Church: Baptism, the Eucharist, and confirmation.

Just curious, what is your religion? And what got you interested in the Catholic Church?
[/quote]

Ah, I see.

I’m Christian, right now I go to a….well….it’s a Creedal, Sacramental and Liturgical Bible Church (trinityfellowship.org/ if your curious). I came to Faith as a Presbyterian, Baptized Methodist (re-baptized Baptist) Baptist for a few years while going to a Bible Church. And now go to a Bible Church and am leaning Anglican :thumbsup: . I attend a non-denominational Seminary (actually it’s The Seminary for “Evangelical Bible Churches” for those who know their American Christian History! :smiley: ).

My interest in Catholicism is based on an interest in the middle ages and theology in general. Just brotherly (or "separated brethren for me I guess!) Curiosity as to what other Christians believe and why. And with my interest in middle age Europe, a lot of cultural elements you guys have/do I like :slight_smile:


#12

I asked this question because I’ve have many a debate here on whither or not you guys need to be evangelized, the campus is probably split down the middle on if Catholics are true Christians or not. I take the affirmative and have been nicknamed the resident Catholic (haha, yeah, so if you guys are right, I should get some time off Purgatory right?). A lot of it comes down to are you committing the “Galatian heresy”. And if my understanding of your Soteriology is correct then I’d have to say no. The Galatians believed they could earn God’s grace by their won works. What you have said I understand means that you believe God gives the grace of Faith and that his spirit working in you makes you holy enough to enter Heaven. I see a difference. One is outright Pelagianism and your system is something else, it’s well, Catholic. So yeah, I’m not the only one who thinks this way, Norman Geisler, JI Packer, Billy Graham also. And there was an article in a recent JETS (Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society) that argues the same, it’s called “Is RC Sproul wrong about Martin Luther?”. You may be interested in reading it. etsjets.org/jets/journal/jets.html go to vol. 47.


#13

[quote=Knight4God]Ah, I see.

I’m Christian, right now I go to a….well….it’s a Creedal, Sacramental and Liturgical Bible Church (trinityfellowship.org/ if your curious). I came to Faith as a Presbyterian, Baptized Methodist (re-baptized Baptist) Baptist for a few years while going to a Bible Church. And now go to a Bible Church and am leaning Anglican :thumbsup:
[/quote]

I grew up Anglican (or Episcopal). My mom is still Anglican. About 10 years ago I started looking into Church history, and studying theology. Soon thereafter I converted to the Catholic Church.

The theology of the Anglican Church is really pretty similar to Catholic theology. The difference is that they reject purgatory, Papal Primacy, and (depending on the branch of Anglicanism) they may only accept 2 of the 7 Sacraments. Some of the Anglicans are very close to Catholics: they accept all seven sacraments and even honor Mary as Catholics do.

My mom was in New York a few years ago and visited a Church while she was there. When she returned, she called me and informed me that she had visited a very nice Catholic Church. She said it had statues of Mary, a confessional, and, according to the bulliten, daily “mass”. She then said that this Catholic Church was actually an Episcopal (Anglican) Church. She said she couldn’t believe it because it looked just like a Catholic Church, with statues of Mary and everything. I think this is the Church website stmvirgin.org/ I explained to her that this was a high anglican Church which is still very similar to the Catholic Church.

One of the things that led me into the Catholic Church was one day when I saw a list of the Popes. I followed the list from John Paul II, the Pope at that time, down through the ages. The last (or first) Pope in the list was Peter, who reigned, according to the paper, until AD 67. I thought to myself “is that the same Peter from the Bible”. I called around to a few Catholic Churches and discovered that it was. That set me on a search through Church history and I ended in the Catholic Church: the best move of my life.

Anyway, that is my story.

May God Bless you and direct you on your journey.


#14

One of the better popular texts on Catholic soteriology is James Akin’s The Salvation Controversy (Catholic Answers, 2001; ISBN 1888992182). Akin is a convert from Evangelical Protestantism, and his book is well-researched and well-written, and should certainly be on the shelf of anyone interested in understanding Catholic doctrine.

Your posts show evidence of a fine mind (a true gift from God), and an intellectual honesty that is hard to find in our pragmatic age. May God bless you as you seek his truth.

Truly,
Don


#15

[quote=Knight4God]Ah, I see.

I came to Faith as a Presbyterian, Baptized Methodist (re-baptized Baptist) Baptist for a few years while going to a Bible Church. And now go to a Bible Church and am leaning Anglican :thumbsup: .
[/quote]

Lemme help ya out here: try to skip the Anglican step because they’ve fallen off the edge of the earth. There are still a lot of solid Christians (y’know: people who actually believe in the Resurrection) over there but they’re struggling (I speak as a former Anglican still homesick for a lot of the good stuff).

My interest in Catholicism is based on an interest in the middle ages and theology in general. Just brotherly (or "separated brethren for me I guess!) Curiosity as to what other Christians believe and why. And with my interest in middle age Europe, a lot of cultural elements you guys have/do I like :slight_smile:

Gotta watch out for that mediaeval stuff. It can wrap itself right around your neck and drag you kicking and screaming into the Catholic Church! And then you start to see that it’s not just “furniture” but it’s REAL – and before you know it, you’re a goner! :smiley:

Congrats. I see you did not make the error of believing that Purgatory is a second chance at salvation.


#16

this is the third question about salvation and hell in the last 5 minutes, why don’t you guys get together? better yet, why not do your homework on the CA homepage articles and tracts, and This Rock archives, before asking basic questions?

your understanding of mortal sin, condemnation and hell is too simplistic. there are too many links to carry over but please return to the CA home page and click on the Salvation and Last Things articles in the library on the left. There are also several good articles in the This Rock archives.


#17

Hello TheOpenTheist,

I believe the original poster was looking for the Catholic view of salvation, not your personal view.

If you would like to discuss this why not start a new thread, because this looks a little like a thread hijack.
I suggest you start a thread on once saved, always saved.

God Bless
Scylla


#18

I split off the posts and answers to OpenTheist since they pretty much hijacked this otherwise germaine thread. Carry on guys! :thumbsup:


#19

So, where did the posts go?


#20

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