Catholic V Protestant argument


#22

9 - There is no such thing as mortal and venial sin.

KJV Actual Sin

  • James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
  • 1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
  • Matt. 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

KJV Mortal SIn

  • John 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
  • Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
  • 1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
  • John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
  • Gal. 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
  • Heb. 10: 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

#23

Per Catholic teaching, if a person has a state of sanctifying grace at death then heaven is the end. There could be baptism of water, blood, or desire. If there are post baptismal mortal sins, then there is the possibility of perfect contrition through which they are forgiven. One could say that sorrow must be perfect for those that do no have access to the sacraments.

KJV

  • 2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
  • 1 Cor 3: 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. 14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
  • Matt. 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; 24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. 25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

#24

These ones can be easily unravelled by discussing actual situations with them. If they truly believe that, why do they judge the pedophile Priests to be so evil and out of proportion to their own small daily sins? Or why do they easily judge Hitler to be in hell and not other famous dead people… if not based on their judgement about the gravity of his sins? Protestants move the goal posts so much on this issue depending on how cornered they feel by an issue.


#25

I’m sure you found that easy to defend

Given we have 40+ translations of the Bible in English, here’s where “mortal sin” appears in the RSV-CE https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Jn5:16-17&version=RSVCE
“unto death”, & “Mortal” (physical or spiritual) are synonymous terms. From the Greek study bible, πρὸς θάνατον .
Sins aren’t equal.
1 exmple out of many I could post 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+cor+6%3A9-10&version=RSVCE note: the consequences. That describes loss of heaven, as in hell

It’s a tradition that is dogma. From the CCC (10 pages of explanation) http://ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=baptism&xsubmit=Search&s=SS

Then there is for THEM no need for judgement? What do the do with this? Luke 13:23-28 , few are saved

Here’s where mass is, in the NT. Mass in scripture Why did early Christians believe in the Real Presence?

AND from the CCC

2178 This practice of the Christian assembly dates from the beginnings of the apostolic age. The Letter to the Hebrews reminds the faithful “not to neglect to meet together, as is the habit of some, but to encourage one another.”
Tradition preserves the memory of an ever-timely exhortation: Come to Church early, approach the Lord, and confess your sins, repent in prayer. . . . Be present at the sacred and divine liturgy, conclude its prayer and do not leave before the dismissal. . . . We have often said: “This day is given to you for prayer and rest. This is the day that the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be glad in it.”

2181 The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) or dispensed by their own
pastor. Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin.

Stopped Due to space


#26

Objection number 3 . . . .

3- Baptism is just tradition -

OK. Let’s consider . . . .

NOT 1st PETER 3:18-21 but a phantom passage 18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. 21 Baptism , which corresponds to this, is merely a tradition , just symbolic of a removal of dirt from the body.

1st PETER 3:18-22 18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. 21 Baptism , which corresponds to this, now saves you , not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ , 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.

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You gotta be “Born Again” (or “Born From Above”), you gotta be “Born of Water AND the Spirit”!

NOT JOHN 3:3-4a, 5, 22 (Phantom Verse) . . . 3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, How can a man be born when he is old? . . . 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, if one is born of water and the Spirit, he is carrying out mere tradition . . . . . 22 After this Jesus and his disciples went into the land of Judea; there he remained with them and urged people to merely accept Jesus into their hearts as personal Lord and Savior.

.

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JOHN 3:3-4a, 5, 22 . . . 3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, How can a man be born when he is old? . . . 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God . . . . . 22 After this Jesus and his disciples went into the land of Judea; there he remained with them and baptized.

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HOW did we get into this ONE BODY (The Body of Christ)?

WE WERE BAPTIZED INTO ONE BODY.

NOT 1st CORINTHIANS 12:13 but another phantom verse 13 For by one Spirit we were all

prayed into one body with a sinners prayer only

‑ Jews or Greeks, slaves or free ‑ and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

1st CORINTHIANS 12:13 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body . . .


#27

How do you make “Disciples”?

Fortunately we don’t have to speculate because Jesus tells us.

MATTHEW 28:18-19a 18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations , . . .

OK. We are to “make disciples”. But HOW Jesus, should we do this?

MATTHEW 28:18-20 18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."

HOW do the Apostles make disciples of ALL nations? Two things Jesus explicitly tells them here.

Baptize them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. And . . .

Teach them to obey ALL that I have COMMANDED you.

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Make Disciples

  • Baptism

  • Catechesis

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There is more, much more if you need more Mdock.


#28

Objection number 4.

4- As long as we are “saved” we go to heaven if we believe in God and have asked forgiveness . It doesn’t matter what we have done as long as we are sorry. There is no purgatory - there is only heaven and hell.

OK Mdock. I think I am going to have to wait on this one a day or two as I have other things I must tend to.

I’ll be back though.

Hopefully this is helping.

And by the way . . .

and have asked forgiveness

WHY do you have to “ask for forgiveness”?

Wasn’t Jesus’ work on Calvary “enough”? WHY bother asking for forgiveness?

(The above questions are rhetorical and adults being Baptized MUST ask forgiveness of their sins, sinners gifted with a repentance must likewise cooperate and ask, etc. etc. Again the above questions are rhetorical to get your friends to think about some things. Things like . . . ."Oh yeah. Justification by faith ALONE, isn’t REALLY going to work if I NEED “faith PLUS anything” including repentance.)


#29

[quote=“Mdock, post:1, topic:521759”]1-The Eucharist is not real -
I found enough bible verses to inialate that statement-

2- Every sin we commit is the same in God’s eyes. Saying a curse word is the same as murdering someone in God’s eyes ??? ( Lord have mercy)

The Epistle of James says if we have violated any commandment, we have violated them all. It’s not the same thing. as saying one sin is as bad as another.

3- Baptism is just tradition -

Jesus said that the apostles were to teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, etc. How can one argue with that? Jesus said to teach them to observe all that he had commanded.

4- As long as we are “saved” we go to heaven if we believe in God and have asked forgiveness . It doesn’t matter what we have done as long as we are sorry. There is no purgatory - there is only heaven and hell.

It is spiritual pride or “presumption” to assume the judgment of God. In places, the scripture suggest that we can be certain of our salvation, but in other places it says that we can indeed lose our salvation. You can’t just “cherry pick” the verses that suit your purpose.

5- It says no where in the Bible that you have to go to church. You don’t have to go to church on Sunday to keep Holy the Lord’s day.

Jis loosed in heaven. The Church has the authority to bind us to attend Mass on the weekend. Jesus gave the apostles the power to bind and loose – what is bound on earth is bound in heaven, what is loosed on earth

[have to split this up into two posts]


#30

6- how do Catholics prove Eucharistic miracles , Mary appearing , etc .

Those are largely private revelations and Catholics are not bound to assent to them.

7- Mary was NOT Without sin only Jesus was. She was blessed and God found favor in her but she was just an ordinary girl.

This takes a careful bible study, such as found in Brant Pitre’s “Jesus and the Jewish Roots of Mary.” This criticism does date back some centuries, but not to apostolic times. The question is, what is the authority for those who hold that position?

8- the Bible says we are all saints ? Period?? She sent this to me after dinner :hugs:. IMG_0610.jpeg

The New Testament refers to living saints, people who have been sanctified in Baptism. The Catholic Church does not deny this, but it is not a common practice. I think the church takes a conservative approach to declaring someone a saint, even casually.

9- There is no such thing as mortal and venial sin.

I think it is one of the epistles of John, probably 1 John, that makes a mention somewhere that all sins are not deadly. So, scripture sets up the dichotomy and gives us guidelines about which sins are grave matter. Generally, any offense against the Ten Commandments is considered grave matter, but that is not restricted to those alone.

Ok my dear brothers and sisters-
Send me my ammunition!!!

The “ammunition” is to gently contrast the teaching of the Catholic Church based on long centuries of study against the “authority” of churches which do not have such a lineage. It’s easy to ask such tough questions, and it takes a lot of lay out the position of the Church. This results because critics are often looking for literal “proof texts” for any position. First, some of the Church’s positions are complicated, and are based on its own tradition developed over centuries of study, as new situations arise. Second, the Church does not subscribe to the “sola scriptura” [“bible alone”] philosophy and mantra of the Reformation. That slogan, sola scriptura, was conceived by a guy by the name of Marsilius two hundred years before the reformation started under Martin Luther. Marsilius was an atheist and used the sola scripture, just pulled it out of thin air (not in the Bible), to attack the magisterial (teaching) authority of the Pope. Shockingly, Luther picked up that argument because he had the same goal of undermining the magisterium (authority) of the Pope. Instead of having one Pope who makes the final decision on a matter, in Protestantism every believer is a Pope who make up their own mind what to believe and what to practice.

Luther also encourage the nationalization of churches, where the monarch of a country decided what religion would be allowed in that country, to the exclusion of others. That seems blatantly contrary to scripture, where St. Paul and the other apostles spread the same gospel to all countries. Those fractures of the Protestant churches has no technical basis, rather is probably based on political considerations.

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I have to write something here. God bless.


#31

I’m a Reformed Protestant - and I’m sorry this happened. Love is patient and kind - it doesn’t insist on its own way. If you felt (and were) attacked - and I believe you were - your friends were not acting in love, and therefore were poor representatives of our shared King. Please accept my apologies for their rude behavior.


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