"Catholic" vs. "Roman Catholic"


#1

Thoughts?

A Lutheran friend thought he would point out to others that in the creed where we say ‘catholic’ that it wasn’t the “Roman Catholic Church”.

Setting that issue aside, isn’t it more proper to say that we’re Catholic and saying Roman Catholic just means we’re from the Roman (or Latin) Rite?

Thoughts? Comments?


#2

[quote=Dandelion_Wine]Thoughts?

A Lutheran friend thought he would point out to others that in the creed where we say ‘catholic’ that it wasn’t the “Roman Catholic Church”.

Setting that issue aside, isn’t it more proper to say that we’re Catholic and saying Roman Catholic just means we’re from the Roman (or Latin) Rite?

Thoughts? Comments?
[/quote]

“Roman Catholic” is actually a Protestant invention. You are correct that when Catholics use it correctly, it only refers to distinguishing between the Western (Latin, or Roman) Rite and the Eastern Rites.

If your friend thinks “Catholic” means something else, ask her WHAT?http://forums.catholic.com/images/icons/icon10.gif


#3

The Catholic Church is made up of many different Churches. I believe there are actually 22 Catholic Churches in the universal Catholic Church.

members.tripod.com/~Berchmans/church22.html

The creed, when it was written did not mean to include all of the schismatic groups that came from the Catholic Church. It meant all of the Churches together, founded by Christ, and in communion with the successor of Peter, The Bishop of Rome.

So while Lutherans and other protestants say the creed and mean catholic in the small “c” sense, Catholics have understood it in the big “C” sense from the very beginning.

Protestants adopted another view because they broke away from the Bishop of Rome, the Rock upon whom Christ built the Church, Peter (Matt 16:18-19, Eph 2:20, 1Tim3:15).

As the old saying goes; “Where Peter is, there is the Church”, meaning that those who are in full communion with Peter, are in full communion with Christ. By our shared Baptism with protestants, they are put in an imperfect communion with the Catholic Church (big C).


#4

[quote=Dandelion_Wine]Thoughts?

A Lutheran friend thought he would point out to others that in the creed where we say ‘catholic’ that it wasn’t the “Roman Catholic Church”.

Setting that issue aside, isn’t it more proper to say that we’re Catholic and saying Roman Catholic just means we’re from the Roman (or Latin) Rite?

Thoughts? Comments?
[/quote]

The term “Roman” Catholic brings along with it a long train of misconceptions, since the Catholic Church is made up of **many **Rites, not just the Roman/Latin Rite. The “Catholic Church” is what the Church calls itself, as Vatican documents attest.

Gerry :slight_smile:


#5

Unfortunately, Leo XIII used “Roman Catholic” in one of his encyclicals. So it has been used within the Church.


#6

[quote=oldfogey]Unfortunately, Leo XIII used “Roman Catholic” in one of his encyclicals. So it has been used within the Church.
[/quote]

What encyclical is it?

Gerry :slight_smile:


#7

I have to look it up, don’t have it in front of me now.


#8

[quote=Dandelion_Wine]Thoughts?

A Lutheran friend thought he would point out to others that in the creed where we say ‘catholic’ that it wasn’t the “Roman Catholic Church”.

Setting that issue aside, isn’t it more proper to say that we’re Catholic and saying Roman Catholic just means we’re from the Roman (or Latin) Rite?

Thoughts? Comments?
[/quote]

Yep! :smiley:


#9

Your friend is right. That is why in the creed the word catholic is not capitalized. When it appears in the creed it is refering to the universal nature of the faith.

When someone says they are Roman Catholic they mean that they are a member of the Roman Rite of the universal church.

Universal church meaning that Christ came to save everyone.

Not a hippie new age:

“universal church dude gosh thats totally awesome man.”


#10

[quote=rayray81]Your friend is right. That is why in the creed the word catholic is not capitalized. When it appears in the creed it is refering to the universal nature of the faith.

When someone says they are Roman Catholic they mean that they are a member of the Roman Rite of the universal church.

Universal church meaning that Christ came to save everyone.

Not a hippie new age:

“universal church dude gosh thats totally awesome man.”
[/quote]


rayray81, You wrote in the top line…“the creed”, I made it blue.

You wrote the word “catholic” is NOT capitalised,. You wrote “the” creed. That means just one, the genuine one and only creed. “the” as in one.What Creed are you quoting? I quote the Nicine Creed.

I beg to differ with you but I am looking at my St. Joseph’s Daily Missal ( you know, the one in which all of the Mass is included). In my Missal the word “catholic” is capitalised! It reads …“And I believe in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church” It is capitalised. And it should be capitalised unless you are a Prorestant. In that case , your catholic is just a word meaning universal. University and universal have the same stem…


#11

It says on my 1957 baptismal certificate ROMAN CATHOLIC and my parish church says ROMAN CATHOLIC on it (as does several other Roman Catholic churches in Boston).

My first communion certificate and my confirmation certificate also have ROMAN CATHOLIC on them. And we have referred to ourselves as Roman Catholic in all my interactions with my fellow ‘Catholics’ here in Boston.

I have always assumed that ‘Catholic’ was just a shortened version of Roman Catholic, and when the term ‘Christian’ was ever used, it always meant the Protestants. Especially today when there are individuals and colleges who call themselves Christian but are neither Protestant nor Roman Catholic.


#12

[quote=Kevin Walker]It says on my 1957 baptismal certificate ROMAN CATHOLIC and my parish church says ROMAN CATHOLIC on it (as does several other Roman Catholic churches in Boston).

My first communion certificate and my confirmation certificate also have ROMAN CATHOLIC on them. And we have referred to ourselves as Roman Catholic in all my interactions with my fellow ‘Catholics’ here in Boston.

I have always assumed that ‘Catholic’ was just a shortened version of Roman Catholic, and when the term ‘Christian’ was ever used, it always meant the Protestants. Especially today when there are individuals and colleges who call themselves Christian but are neither Protestant nor Roman Catholic.
[/quote]

The Roman Catholic Church is one of the 23 churches that makes up the Catholic Church. I am a member of the Byzantine Catholic Church, it is not Roman.


#13

[quote=oldfogey]Unfortunately, Leo XIII used “Roman Catholic” in one of his encyclicals. So it has been used within the Church.
[/quote]

have to look it up, don’t have it in front of me now.

Where’s the proof - its been a month ?


#14

[quote=Dan-Man916]The Catholic Church is made up of many different Churches. I believe there are actually 22 Catholic Churches in the universal Catholic Church.
C).
[/quote]

wrong. There is one and only one Catholic Church. Jesus Christ established one Church on earth, which has persisted for 2000 years under the protection of the Holy Spirit, led on earth by the Popes, successors of Peter, which is the Catholic Church. Within the Catholic Church united in obedience to the authority of the pope and the magesterium, are many rites (referring to the version of the liturgy practiced, various disciplines and customs) many of them preserving liturgical practices from the very earliest days of the church, such as Syrio-Malabar, Coptic etc. Also in union with the Catholic Church are several Eastern Rites of various countries which had followed the Orthodox after the final schism in the 11th c., and since have submitted to papal authority and reunited with the mother church. There are also various Eastern rites which never separated from Rome. “Church” can also refer to these rites, or to local dioceses, as in the usage of Acts and the epistles. There are also Churches that retain apostolic succession, but deny the authority of the pope, commonly described as Orthodox Churches, most tied to a nation or ethnic group, which are more or less allied in a union of their patriarchs who are seen as equals in authority. There are also various Christian denominations which have broken away from Rome due to doctrinal, political, disciplinary or other disputes during the Protestant Reformation. They are Christians but not enjoying the wholeness in Christ of the unity he commanded.


#15

May I join you in the “confusion?”

I slightly disagree with puzzleannie: there is one and only one Church established by Jesus Christ.

That Church is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic.

We, Catholics, firmly believe and profess that the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church IS (or subsists in) the Catholic Church. Eastern Churches (Oriental and Eastern Orthodox) also believe and profess in the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church!

Further, we believe that the Catholic Church, as first described by St. Ignatius of Antioch as such, IS the Church established by Jesus Christ on Peter (or on Peter’s faith); that she is THE universal Church, where God’s sacramental ark of salvation is in its fullness.

Thus, every Church or ecclesial community professing to be the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic MUST be in communion with the See of Peter (or the Barque of Peter), or, at least recognize the universal shepherdic role of the successor of Peter (Petrine Office) to maintain the oneness (the unity) of Christ’s one and only Church.

Sadly, there is a factual disunity of the “Church” best exemplified by the millenium-long “separation” or “estrangement” between the Catholic Church and the Eastern Churches, and, later, the Catholic Church and protestantism. To the first, Pope John Paul II has partly committed his pontificate to our reunification so that the Church can again breathe with “two lungs!”

With that in mind, various Eastern Churches have come, at various times, into “communion” with Rome, the See of Peter. Thus, there are currently 22 Eastern Churches in the Catholic Communion which, together with the Roman Catholic Church (or Latin Church), is THE Catholic Church.


#16

It appears to me that the confusion that arises whenever this issue comes up is one of semantics… our use of the word “Church.”

Truly, our Lord established one “Church” on Earth. That Church is the Catholic Church (Note: NOT the Roman Catholic Church), being the living assembly of His followers. As the Apostles spread Christ’s Word throughout the known world, they established “Churches” in major metropolitan areas to minister to those people living in those areas. We have scriptural references to the Church of Alexandria, the Church of Antioch, the Church of Rome, etc. Each of these geographic and cultural juristictions was designated by the title “Church of…” Each had their own heierarchy, their own rituals, and so on, such that each became a stand-alone assembly of Our Lord’s followers, loyal to both the teachings of Our Lord AND to their own heritage and culture as a means to express and manifest those teachings.

Over time, the number of these “Churches” grew and they each were given the title sui iuris, roughly meaning "self governing. This meant that as long as they remained true to the Word and teachings of Our Lord and the dogmatic conditions of our faith, they were considered to be members of the “Church” established by Our Lord, despite the fact that they may express their theology and spiritually very differently from one another. Today we have 23 separate “Churches sui iuris” that together comprise our Catholic Church. Since our Mother Church has seen fit to refer to each of these sui iuris institutions as a “Church,” I believe it is incumbent upon us, the faithful, to remain consistent with that terminology. Confusing as it is, there is, in fact, one “Church” composed of 23 “Churches!”

Perhaps this description of sui iuris will help…

kottayamdiocese.com/sui_juris.htm

a pilgrim


#17

[quote=Exporter]*****************************************************************************
rayray81, You wrote in the top line…“the creed”, I made it blue.

You wrote the word “catholic” is NOT capitalised,. You wrote “the” creed. That means just one, the genuine one and only creed. “the” as in one.What Creed are you quoting? I quote the Nicine Creed.

I beg to differ with you but I am looking at my St. Joseph’s Daily Missal ( you know, the one in which all of the Mass is included). In my Missal the word “catholic” is capitalised! It reads …“And I believe in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church” It is capitalised. And it should be capitalised unless you are a Prorestant. In that case , your catholic is just a word meaning universal. University and universal have the same stem…
[/quote]

In the Apostle’s Creed it is capitalized. In the Nicene Creed it isn’t. Thats probably what you are remembering. I wasn’t to sure about it myself and went and checked it out after I saw your response.

Nicene Creed:
newadvent.org/cathen/11049a.htm

Apostle’s Creed
newadvent.org/cathen/01629a.htm

%between%


#18

[quote=rayray81]In the Apostle’s Creed it is capitalized. In the Nicene Creed it isn’t. Thats probably what you are remembering. I wasn’t to sure about it myself and went and checked it out after I saw your response.

Nicene Creed:
newadvent.org/cathen/11049a.htm

Apostle’s Creed
newadvent.org/cathen/01629a.htm

[/quote]

Does anyone have any background as to why the two creeds have a different use of “C©atholic”?

I was taught in RCIA that the word “catholic” meant universal and included all who have faith in Christ. This, of course, was easier for a converting protestant to accept. I have no particular problem with either usage, but now all y’all have me confused.

I looked at my Catechism, and I’m not clear -

**CCC 834 **Particular Churches are fully catholic through their communion with one of them, the Church of Rome “which presides with charity.” “For with this church, by reason of its pre-eminence, the whole Church, that is the faithful everywhere, must necessarily be in accord…”

That seems clear enough…

But then, under Who Belongs to the Catholic Church?

**CCC 836 **"All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God…And to it, in different ways, belong ar are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation.

In the rest of the section, it explains those (CCC 837) “fully incorporated” and (CCC 838) those who “are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion” including the Orthodox who have a “profound communion”.

It seems to me that this whole section implies all Christians are part of the Catholic Church. Otherwise, why use the heading “Who Belongs” and then not say “they are, but they’re not”?

Robert.


#19

The terms Rite and Church are NOT interchangable. A Rite is what is used by a Church, hence the Roman Church uses the Latin Rite. For example, the Coptic and Ethiopian Churches uses the Alexandrian Rite, and the Georgian and Greek Churches use the Byzantine Rite. These are real Churches with real Patriarchs, just as the Roman Church has a Patriarch of its own (currently the Pope). These Churches all share a single Pope, however, making them part of the Catholic (universal) Church.

The fact that we have many Churches does not negate the fact that we are, together, a single Church. It can be likened to individual finger bones (Churches) attaching together in finger (Rites), together making a hand (Catholic Church). A Church is a jurisdiction, and we have both limited jurisdictions and a universal jurisdiction. Another example of a similar structure would be the U.S. model of states and nation, where each state has its own jurisdiction on certain matters, but all ultimately fall under the national banner, and form one indivisible nation.


#20

[quote=Amadeus]May I join you in the “confusion?”

I slightly disagree with puzzleannie: there is one and only one Church established by Jesus Christ.

That Church is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic.

We, Catholics, firmly believe and profess that the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church IS (or subsists in) the Catholic Church. Eastern Churches (Oriental and Eastern Orthodox) also believe and profess in the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church!

Further, we believe that the Catholic Church, as first described by St. Ignatius of Antioch as such, IS the Church established by Jesus Christ on Peter (or on Peter’s faith); that she is THE universal Church, where God’s sacramental ark of salvation is in its fullness.

Thus, every Church or ecclesial community professing to be the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic MUST be in communion with the See of Peter (or the Barque of Peter), or, at least recognize the universal shepherdic role of the successor of Peter (Petrine Office) to maintain the oneness (the unity) of Christ’s one and only Church.

Sadly, there is a factual disunity of the “Church” best exemplified by the millenium-long “separation” or “estrangement” between the Catholic Church and the Eastern Churches, and, later, the Catholic Church and protestantism. To the first, Pope John Paul II has partly committed his pontificate to our reunification so that the Church can again breathe with “two lungs!”

With that in mind, various Eastern Churches have come, at various times, into “communion” with Rome, the See of Peter. Thus, there are currently 22 Eastern Churches in the Catholic Communion which, together with the Roman Catholic Church (or Latin Church), is THE Catholic Church.
[/quote]

There is One Church, the “Orthodox” are outside it.


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