Catholic Worship of Mary


#1

I thought it prudent to show one of the Catholic errs in Marian worship.
These are authroatative quotes which prove that the Catholic Church worships Mary.

With the apparent change in the attitudes of the Catholic Church in public towards other religious peoples, it becomes necessary to know what the Catholic church really teaches. The following clearly reveals that the Catholic Church has not changed at all, but is still the same as she was before–no matter what front she parades to the world! All statements given are from Catholic sources. These statements are found to be based upon pure tradition, and have no foundation what-so-ever in God’s word of truth. These statements are here provided to clearly show how the Catholic church instructs their membership to unquestionably submit to the traditions and commandments of men–which Christ declares to be vain worship (see Matthew 15:9) and which will bring His curse (see Jeremiah 17:5), as well as to help you avoid being trapped in this same snare.)

Important moderator note: The website that is here offered is not giving accurate quotes of real Catholic documents. But pulling pieces out of context. Thanks to Church Militant for his quick research that he has posted later on in this thread which shows the quotes PNRC posted do not exist. They are complete fabrications. Link removed as rabidly anti-Catholic

These include Papal encylicals which the Catholic Church claim are authoratative for church teachings.


#2

Unfortunately, the lightministries is very mistaken. There are some excellent Catholic sources for information on the honor we show to The Blessed Virgin Mary, for as Holy Scripture states, “All generations shall call me Blessed”. I would start with the Catechism. In the Catechism it states:
**490 **To become the mother of the Savior, Mary “was enriched by God with gifts appropriate to such a role.” The angel Gabriel at the moment of the annunciation salutes her as “full of grace”. In fact, in order for Mary to be able to give the free assent of her faith to the announcement of her vocation, it was necessary that she be wholly borne by God’s grace.

Now, Mary is a creature and we do not worship creatures. However, the Church uses language in a much richer, much more educated manner than the average person. Oftentimes, what our very learned Fathers have written has been misconstrued. Trust me, my brother in Christ, Catholic Christians, only worship God, as manifested in the Holy Trinity. We are not children of the Book, but Children of the Word Incarnate, Jesus Christ. We use the Holy Scripture (what you would call only The Bible) and Sacred Tradition, established by both Jesus the Savior and our Elder Brothers in the Faith. If one of our Early Church Fathers were to walk into a Mass today, he would know exactly what was taking place, because it is the same as that which was done in secret, and for which we were thrown into arenas and murdered for the pleasure of crowds so long ago.

Read, learn and pray - and may Our Blessed Mother lead you to the full banquet of faith that her Son, Our Lord and Savior has ready for you!


#3

Leslie,

As usual, well done and with charity! You are a great defender of The Faith.

Thank you :thumbsup:
VC


#4

PNRC,

another web site spreading ignorance and propaganda.


#5

[quote=PNRC]I thought it prudent to show one of the Catholic errs in Marian worship…
[/quote]

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=78627&page=1&pp=100


#6

Lightministries was one of those websites that, when Rod Bennett started his search to ‘prove’ how wrong the Catholic Church was it lead to his eventual conversion!

But we must pray for them - the papal writings quoted are badly translated from the Latin. And because Latin is such a rich language, the average person today is unaware that there are two ways to write the word ‘honor’, two ways to write the word ‘worshp’, etc, one way reserved for God and the other reserved for creatures. This has often been used by anti-Catholics and our misguided separated brethren to ‘prove’ we worship Mary. But, unless one is as well educated as those who wrote the books and letters from which one is quoting, one is often left with egg on one’s face…and for that reason, we must continue to invite them to learn the truth, and welcome them to the whole banquet. It is waiting!


#7

I don’t see how any of the documents cited encourage Mary worship or dogmatically define Mary as being equal to God or divine. Believing that, in a certain sense, Mary is a mediatrix does not mean Catholics worship her. when you pray for someone, are you not being a mediator between that person and Jesus? Does this mean that the person who requested your prayer was worshipping you? We believe that Mary has a special intercessory role, due to the fact that she is the Mother of Christ and the New Eve. But this role is absolutely subordinate to Christ and does not make her divine or equal to God.

God Bless


#8

it sounds like we are both speaking English but we still fail to understand one another. it is getting old.

I will address the mediation idea. Others can address other issues…

please follow along…

Do you grant Mary the status of being not only the Mother of Jesus but also a disciple of Christ? Do you grant that when Jesus came into the world, the Father chose Mary as the medium by which He came? Do you grant that the Holy Spirit came upon Mary? Do you grant that when Mary died she, who knew and loved Jesus so well (even to the point of being with Him as He suffered and died for us), went to heaven? Do you grant that Jesus kept God’s commandments perfectly … including the command to honor His Parents? Do you grant that God is the God of the living and not the God of the dead? Do you grant that Mary is alive in this same sense, such that she is alive in God and alive in Christ? Do you grant that we are to pray for one another? Do you understand that being the medium through which Christ entered the world Mary became by definition a mediator between mankind and the Father?

Christ said that “as the Father has sent me so I send you?” Christ was sent as mediator; therefore, the Church and its members are to mediate Christ to the world. In obedience to Christ we are to mediate.

If you agree with the foregoing, then the only things that we may disagree on is 1) what it means to be the God of the living and not the God of the dead and 2) When is it ok for us to stop obeying Christ. For Catholics it means that Mary is more alive now that she is with God than she was on earth. To the second point, Catholics believe that those in heaven are still members of the body of Christ, still doing His will, still praying , still mediating Christ to the world by means of their prayers (yes we believe that people in heaven still pray; see Revelation)

But you may say there is only one mediator … so do we. Jesus Christ who, by a gracious & merciful gift to his church, has shared his misssion with the church… the church which is the Body of Christ and Church with whom he so closely identifies that persecution of the Church is persecution of Christ.

Do you understand what it means to be a member of the church? It means that when we are doing the will of the Father, that is when we are making the Kingdon of God present, we are the Body of Christ in the world doing Christ’s mission… What was Christ’s mission? **mediation, **preaching the kingdom, salvation. If you preach Christ to a non-Christian, By definition you are mediating Christ to him.

We are all called to be mediators. All of us. Mary is the exemplar! She is still the Exemplar because she mediated Christ tie the world, she did the will fo the Father, she stood there in the darkest hour and because the God Catholics worship is the God is the God of the living…not the God of the dead. She is still at it, unless you think that when we get to heaven we stop obeying God.

Now go read James 5 and see about prayer of a righteous man


#9

Mary Places Herself Between Christ and His People, and Thus We Only Have Access to God and Jesus Through Mary. All Heavenly Gifts From the Father, Son, or the Holy Spirit, Including the Gift of Salvation, Come ONLY Through Mary.Mary is the Ladder, Chief Confidence, Whole Ground of Hope, Greatest Security, and the Door to God for Sinners.Mary Has Reconciled Humanity With God, Assented to Rescue Our Fallen World, and is the ONLY Refuge and Sole Hope of Sinners.Mary Co-shared in the Offering and Sacrifice for Sin at Calvary.In Mary is to be Found the End of the Law and the Fulfilling of Figures.Mary is the Lover and Spouse of the Godhead.Mary is the Bride and Spouse of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
It is Through Mary that God is Adored and Glorified Mary is Divine, Sovereign, and Reigns on the Throne of God, Wielding Almost Limitless Royal Power, as Queen of the Earth, Angels, Heaven, and the Universe

God Himself is Subject, Submissive, and Obedient to Mary Everything We Do Must be for Mary
It is Through Mary That We Have Salvation and Can Enter Heaven No One is a True Christian Unless They Are Devoted to Mary
It is Through Mary that we Gain Eter nal Life Mary is the Center of the Whole World, and is to be Praised, Venerated, Honored, Esteemed, and Worshipped
Devotion to Mary is NECESSARY For Salvation and Freedom From Sin
These are my objections as the quotes show.


#10

[quote=PNRC]Mary Places Herself Between Christ and His People, and Thus We Only Have Access to God and Jesus Through Mary. All Heavenly Gifts From the Father, Son, or the Holy Spirit, Including the Gift of Salvation, Come ONLY Through Mary.Mary is the Ladder, Chief Confidence, Whole Ground of Hope, Greatest Security, and the Door to God for Sinners.Mary Has Reconciled Humanity With God, Assented to Rescue Our Fallen World, and is the ONLY Refuge and Sole Hope of Sinners.Mary Co-shared in the Offering and Sacrifice for Sin at Calvary.In Mary is to be Found the End of the Law and the Fulfilling of Figures.Mary is the Lover and Spouse of the Godhead.Mary is the Bride and Spouse of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
It is Through Mary that God is Adored and Glorified Mary is Divine, Sovereign, and Reigns on the Throne of God, Wielding Almost Limitless Royal Power, as Queen of the Earth, Angels, Heaven, and the Universe

God Himself is Subject, Submissive, and Obedient to Mary Everything We Do Must be for Mary
It is Through Mary That We Have Salvation and Can Enter Heaven No One is a True Christian Unless They Are Devoted to Mary
It is Through Mary that we Gain Eter nal Life Mary is the Center of the Whole World, and is to be Praised, Venerated, Honored, Esteemed, and Worshipped
Devotion to Mary is NECESSARY For Salvation and Freedom From Sin
These are my objections as the quotes show.
[/quote]

I have a headache!


#11

Be advised that PNRC is coming from and quoting a Seventh day Adventist site. (SDA2RC where are ya?)

Simply stated…Catholics DO NOT worship Mary. In fact it was this very allegation that got me looking into the truth of this matter and the teachings of the Cathoic Church that led to my discovery of all the lies and misinformation that are spread abroad about the faith and ultimately led to my return to the Catholic Church.

However…the SDA mistakenly worships on Saturday in defiance of the New Testament scriptures and all of Christian history that clearly shows that we celebrate the resurrection on Sundays.

Further their “prophets” like E.G.White have many times announced specific days for the return of Christ, (and obviously been proven wrong.) again in complete defiance of the Word of God.

Their rhetoric is some of the most vitriolic anti-Catholic material that you will ever encounter. The vast majority of it is misinformation, misrepresentation, and just plain outright lies about what we believe. But they believe it…

Get the facts…decide for yourself. (I did!) :slight_smile:


#12

PNRC,

YOU may place ***MARY ***between yourself and Jesus but we Catholics do not. We honor Mary as our Mother, as Jesus commanded while he was on the cross [Woman behold your son, Son behold your mother]. If you ask me to pray for you or I ask for you to pray for me, I do not worship you and would be appalled if you worshiped me. Neither of us are God. However, even in our muddied english language where the meaning of words is so very fluid we can say that a child “worships the ground his father walks upon” with out truly meaning that the ‘worship’ is blasphemous.

PNRC, it is possible to think highly of a person whose behavior, practice, life, actions, etc have exemplified the Christian Life. Mary is the perfect example of living in obedience to Christ (God). Mary always points to Jesus. I expect that you, PNRC, came here to this site to point the way to Jesus. If you would not have a person listen to Jesus’ mother, why should they listen to you?

Where are you, PNRC, mentioned in scripture so that I might know that you are the one? Did you write any of the “Good News” or letters, did you recopy [by hand] and preserve the scriptures through the centuries so that you have maintained a constancy in Christian practice and understatnding through 2000 years? What early Christian writers (33 AD to 400 AD) profess what you perceive is acceptable for Christian practice and understatnding and that differs from what is taught by the Catholic Church?

Just curious… I will await your response

Pax Christe


#13

If I may,
The real issue at heart is not Marian worship, in fact, it is can the saints hear us when we pray down here.

Once this is accepted, the rest falls into place pretty simply.

PNRC - If I may humbley offer this break down of how catholics see this issue, perhaps it will help.

  1. Can the Saints hear us. This is the real issue. There is evidnce that they can. In Revelations (forgive me as I cannot remimber the verse) The saints come to God with basics of incense and prayers asking when will you avenge us. Saints in heaven do not need to pray as we do as they have a direct line to God. We on the other hand do. So, It can be suggested that the prayers are infact our prayers. So, if this is true then that measn the saints CAN hear us. I leave it to the more experienced appologist to describe this point better,

  2. Arent we breaking one of Gods rules by “Conjuring Up Spirits”?
    While it may seem as such, we are not conjuring them up. Conjuring means to invoke and cause them to appear before us. This is NOT what catholics do. Much like a greiving widow/widower sends his thoughts at night to their lost loved one, we send our thoughts to the saints. We do not ask them to appear before us, we simply send our prayers for them to pray with us. We do not expect them to show up before us, and if they are conjured up, it should be looked upon as suspect and possibly from the devil. So No, we are not Conjuring up spirits

  3. If you can accept that it is OK to ask for Saints to pray with us, a host of other issues appear from someone that does not agree with the practice …

(CONT)


#14

That is a great post, and it really hits the nail on the head. As a former Evangelical myself, PNRC, I would encourage you not to look for the most simple answers to these questions, but look for the deeper meaning. We have never worshiped Mary, and we never will. For further reading on this topic, feel free to read my article at the link below.

home.earthlink.net/~karlerickson/writer/id16.html


#15

(CONT)

  1. The common complaint is why do we need them to pray for us, cant Jesus be my soul mediator.
    While in principle this may be the case, Jesus asks us plenty of times to Pray for eachother. If he is asking us to do this, and the Saints can hear us, then why is there a problem in asking them to pray with us.

  2. Ok Great they can hear us and I can pray, but why not jsut ask someone still alive to pray for me.
    Two points to this… the first is… they arent realy dead, they are more alive than any of us can be still on this earth.
    Second - We are told in the bible that the prayers of those in full grace carry great weight with god. So, if the saints are in heaven, they are in te fullest grace possible for a human. If they pray for us, then their prayers will hold more weight than those of us still in a sinful state…

Asking Mary to Pray for us …

(CONT)


#16

[quote=PNRC]Mary Places Herself Between Christ and His People, and Thus We Only Have Access to God and Jesus Through Mary. All Heavenly Gifts From the Father, Son, or the Holy Spirit, Including the Gift of Salvation, Come ONLY Through Mary.Mary is the Ladder, Chief Confidence, Whole Ground of Hope, Greatest Security, and the Door to God for Sinners.Mary Has Reconciled Humanity With God, Assented to Rescue Our Fallen World, and is the ONLY Refuge and Sole Hope of Sinners.Mary Co-shared in the Offering and Sacrifice for Sin at Calvary.In Mary is to be Found the End of the Law and the Fulfilling of Figures.Mary is the Lover and Spouse of the Godhead.Mary is the Bride and Spouse of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
It is Through Mary that God is Adored and Glorified Mary is Divine, Sovereign, and Reigns on the Throne of God, Wielding Almost Limitless Royal Power, as Queen of the Earth, Angels, Heaven, and the Universe

God Himself is Subject, Submissive, and Obedient to Mary Everything We Do Must be for Mary
It is Through Mary That We Have Salvation and Can Enter Heaven No One is a True Christian Unless They Are Devoted to Mary
It is Through Mary that we Gain Eter nal Life Mary is the Center of the Whole World, and is to be Praised, Venerated, Honored, Esteemed, and Worshipped
Devotion to Mary is NECESSARY For Salvation and Freedom From Sin
These are my objections as the quotes show.
[/quote]

Instead of focusing on sound bite theology perhaps you should look to understanding the deeper meaning of what you are reading…


#17

Finally, we get to the meat… Why is Mary So highley regarded…

in Luke, the Angel tells Mary she is full of grace…

If a women is on Earth full of grace, imagine the level of grace she will be after she leaves this world. Also keep in mind she physically shared in the actual blood of christ while he was in her whom. NO ONE can claim that they share some of the physcial DNA of christ. While she is by NO MEANS a goddess, she is more than likely one of the most reveared humans ever to walk to earth. In other words, she is the saint of all saints…

if you want to think about a heirarchy of human importance it goes like this…

the bottom rung is us. The mear humans still on earth trying to eak out an existance
the next rung are the saints in heaven
the top rung is Mary - the saint of saints

keep in mind ALL PRAYER IS POINTED TO JESUS
if you pray TO mary this is wrong… if you ask mary to pray WITH you to jesus, this is good.

JESUS IS THE ULTIMATE TOP RUNG… NOTHING IS ABOVE HIM… anyone that tells you otherwise is in error

I hope this helps. I am poor at words, but hopefully i have helped and not hurt your understanding

In Christ


#18

It is very easy to take small bits of writings and use this to prove a point that you are presenting. What is important to do is to look at everything in context and find out what the Church really teaches.

This is similar to a video a Calvary Chapel missionary gave me that illustrates how Catholics “worship” Mary. They take all sorts of small bits of video illustrating devotion to Mary and space that out with their interpretation of it.
There is an interesting bit where one pastor says"I have heard some Catholics say this about Mary, etc etc…" then he presents how Catholics worship Mary based on his perception, instead of full presenting Catholic teaching.

Just look at the Catechism for official in context teaching, I think the beginning sums up the Catholic view nicely.

scborromeo.org/ccc/prologue.htm#I

Read the first bit, right at the Prologue.

God Bless
Scylla


#19

There is a saying in Sapnish that goes, “Peor ciego es el que no quiere ver.” Roughly translated, it means the worst kind of blindness is unwillingness to see. I think the “Catholics worship Mary” argument has been thoroughly addressed. The basic point is that we Catholics believe that Mary intercedes for us with her Son. A lot of poetic language has been used to describe this intercession, but all of it is not meant to be taken literally. Catholics have never said that grace and salvation originates in Mary. But just as you can be an instrument of salvation for someone (through your preaching, counseling, and prayers), Mary can also be an instrument of salvation through her intercession. 2 Timothy 2: 24-25 states:

And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth.

James 5: 20:

Let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way WILL SAVE a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

When James says that a person who turns a sinner from the error of his way WILL SAVE a soul from death, does he mean that that person does the actual saving? No! It’s understood that the savior is Christ. However, Christ worked through that person to save the sinner from eternal damnation. We believe that Mary’s intercession can bring spiritual benefits, but salvation ultimately comes from Christ.

God Bless


#20

[quote=scylla]It is very easy to take small bits of writings and use this to prove a point that you are presenting.
[/quote]

The following quotes were taken from a realiable SDA source:

Seventh Day Adventists” “worship” “the Whore of Babylon.”

LOL, I was just being comical, exaggerating PNRC’s style of posting. :wink: :wink:

Forgive me if I have offended anyone, I was trying to prove a point in a comical sort of way…


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