Catholicism caused Islam?!?


#1

bible.ca/islam/islam-causes.htm

Note especially how he spends a lot of time explaining “false” Catholic Church dogma. I’ve alread e-mailed this guy explaining what he has wrong. He claims that no one prior to 300 referred to Mary as the Mother of God, so I had to bust out with some Church Fathers quotes.


#2

How ironic is it that he talks about no one calling Mary “Mother of God” before 606 A.D. as “False item #2”, and in “False item #3” he discusses the Nestorian heresy! Does he have any idea who denounced the Nestorian heresy?!? Ever heard of “Theotokos”?!?

Are you sure this isn’t a parody site?!?

This is too funny…


#3

The false doctrine of the Roman Catholic church, which started in 606 AD, drove Muhammad away from Christianity. It is well known by anyone who has read the Bible that praying to Mary, adoration of Mary, the assumption of Mary into heaven, the perpetual virginity of Mary are not found in the Bible. Perhaps calling Mary “mother of God” was the single most repulsive and confusing thing Muhammad saw in what he thought was true Christianity. Muhammad evidently thought that the trinity consisted of the Father, the Son and Mary. Koran 5:116, represents Christians as worshipping Mary as the third member of the Trinity, when in fact the only ones worshiping Mary, based upon the record of history, were the pagan Arabs who worship her idol in the Kaba. But the confusion started with the Roman Catholic church who, although they didn’t worship Mary at that time (they do today), they went around calling her “mother of God”. Historically, no one before 300 AD ever referred to Mary as the "Mother of God".
This is from the link posted by the OP

**So, according to this website, it’s our fault that Islam was started by Mohammad? Oh, the power, the power!!! Who know we had such influence, such control???:rolleyes: **


#4

[quote=Momofone]**So, according to this website, it’s our fault that Islam was started by Mohammad? Oh, the power, the power!!! Who know we had such influence, such control???:rolleyes: **
[/quote]

Yes, and evidently Muhammad was very very well learned about Christianity as well. Close to an expert by the sounds of this guy. He makes Islam sound more like some protestant denomination…


#5

[quote=sanpablo]Yes, and evidently Muhammad was very very well learned about Christianity as well. Close to an expert by the sounds of this guy. He makes Islam sound more like some protestant denomination…
[/quote]

Sorry, I didn’t realize my brother was logged in…this was me.


#6

Well, everybody knows Mohammed didnt’ like women. Except in batches of 4, but he decided 7 was a better number for him personally and it was just everybody else who had to go with 4. Gee, get your rear off the fence, fellah. :tsktsk:


#7

URGENT: PLEASE STOP THIS THREAD BEFORE SOME TERRORIST BOMB THIS CATHOLIC FORUM .


#8

[quote=Momofone]…Historically, no one before 300 AD ever referred to Mary as the "Mother of God".
This is from the link posted by the OP…
[/quote]

is that so…according to Scripture, elizabeth said, ‘And why is this granted to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?’ [Lk 1:43, emphasis mine] somewhere around 300 years before 300 ad.

thanks for listening, t

Glory be Jesus Christ!


#9

Outside of the bible, we still have the Sub Tuum Praesidium, written in the mid-200’s A.D. This guy is just out-to-lunch…


#10

I found a great “antidote” to the vitriol on that site, today.

I visited a wonderful Catholic Book Store this afternoon and found a book I’d never seen before: Inside Islam: A Guide for Catholics. Written in a question & answer format and very easy to read. If you’re a fast reader, you’ll get through it in a few hours.

The book is co-written by Daniel Ali, a Muslim converted to Catholicism and Robert Spencer, a Christian and author of two excellent books - one is Islam Unveiled; Disturbing Questions About the World’s Fastest Growing Religion and the other is Onward, Muslim Soldiers: How Jihad Still Threatens America and the West (which he wrote after 9-11)

Robert Spencer is also the founder of Jihad Watch - jihadwatch.org/ - a site I have referred to many times in attempting to counter the misrepresentations of Islam by Muslim apologists. I recommend that site to everyone.

This book cuts through the intentional misstatements and obfuscations made by Islamists and gives historical and theological arguments and proofs to the contrary.

I don’t often discuss Islam with Muslims, any more. It’s become more important to me to speak to non-Muslims about what I’ve learned, because as these authors will tell you - very few non-believers understand the threats that Islam poses to Western civilization. Even our own President here in the US came out right after 9-11 with the proclamation that Islam is a religion of peace and that we must not tolerate bigotry.

I’m not holding that against him - he was facing the spectre of a huge wave of crimes of retaliation and did not want to further wound the country when we were already in such pain. But, the evidence of Islam NOT being a religion of peace amounts to many volumes of information - it’s covered just adequately in a few pages in this book.

I’ve concluded that for me it is futile to argue religion with a person who is not only allowed but directed to lie to non-Muslims in matters of faith.

I might be tempted to do more evangelization and discussion if the Muslim and I are playing on an even field - but that will never be the case as long as one of us is required to lie and the other to tell the truth.

Better that I spend the time and energy praying for conversions, and leave the arguments to those who are more learned, “chapter and verse” of the Qu’ran and the Hadith. There are people who are experts at drawing out the incompletions and obfuscations from the statements made in such discussions and so for now at least, I will leave it to them.

This book is such a series of learned arguments and I heartily recommend it for anyone who wants to know what is behind the hatred for Christians and the West, in general and how to counter anti-Christian arguments.

Hope this will be helpful to someone,
Elizabeth


#11

Wherever the islamic world borders other religions there is conflict.


#12

[quote=ElizabethJoy]I’ve concluded that for me it is futile to argue religion with a person who is not only allowed but directed to lie to non-Muslims in matters of faith.
[/quote]

Hello Elizabeth,

Robert Spencer is about as anti-Islam as they come. I hope you counter-balance his viewpoint with more positive or at least mainstream books about Islam.

Lastly - your above quote only applies during times of war, against the enemy, on the battlefield. If you think I am obligated to lie to you, then you are mistaken.

If I am lieing - please show me some references from the Quran or anywhere, to back up your statements.

Munawar


#13

[quote=new man]Wherever the islamic world borders other religions there is conflict.
[/quote]

Hello NewMan,

Ussually because Muslims refuse to cow down before Tyrants or opressors. Whereever your see violence with Muslims involved, who is the instigator? Who is the oppressed? Who are the victims?

Palestine? Algeria? Chechnya? Kashmir? China? Libya? These are Muslim people being subjected by Governments.

Munawar


#14

[quote=Munawar]Lastly - your above quote only applies during times of war, against the enemy, on the battlefield. If you think I am obligated to lie to you, then you are mistaken.

If I am lieing - please show me some references from the Quran or anywhere, to back up your statements.
[/quote]

Munawar,
Please tell me where in the Qur’an it says the following applies only to times of war:

And that you should judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires, and be cautious of them, lest they seduce you from part of what Allah has revealed to you; but if they turn back, then know that Allah desires to afflict them on account of some of their faults; and most surely many of the people are transgressors. Is it then the judgment of the times of ignorance that they desire: and who is better than Allah to judge for a people who are sure? O YOU WHO BELIEVE! DO NOT TAKE THE JEWS AND THE CHRISTIANS FOR FRIENDS; THEY ARE FRIENDS OF EACH OTHER; AND WHOEVER AMONGST YOU TAKES THEM FOR A FRIEND, THEN SURELY HE IS ONE OF THEM; SURELY ALLAH DOES NOT GUIDE THE UNJUST PEOPLE. (5:49-51)

The punishment of those who pit themselves against Allah and His Messenger and strive to make mischief in the land** is only this**, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement, except those who repent before you have them in your power (5:33-34)

Believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one god: far be it from his glory that He should have a son. (4:171)

…this is a gross misunderstanding of Trinitarian theology, but not the only mistake in the Qur’an…

As for those who disbelieve in Our communications, We shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the punishment (4:56)

Surely they who disbelieve in the communications of Allah - they shall have a severe punishment; and Allah is Mighty, the lord of retribution. (3:4)

Should I continue to quote from this ‘book of peace’?
RyanL


#15

[quote=Munawar]Hello NewMan,

Ussually because Muslims refuse to cow down before Tyrants or opressors. Whereever your see violence with Muslims involved, who is the instigator? Who is the oppressed? Who are the victims?

Palestine? Algeria? Chechnya? Kashmir? China? Libya? These are Muslim people being subjected by Governments.

Munawar
[/quote]

I don’t support oppression either, but don’t try to sound like bombing a cafe full of fellow Muslims or killing a group of school children is fighting oppression and tyranny. Christians in Saudi Arabi aren’t doing these things.


#16

[quote=Munawar]Hello NewMan,

Ussually because Muslims refuse to cow down before Tyrants or opressors. Whereever your see violence with Muslims involved, who is the instigator? Who is the oppressed? Who are the victims?

Palestine? Algeria? Chechnya? Kashmir? China? Libya? These are Muslim people being subjected by Governments.

Munawar
[/quote]

How would you respond to this article which states that Islam is the religion most prone to violence because unlike Christianity which states “love thy neighbor”, Muslims are obligated to engage in jihad?

Here are some excerpts:

First, it means that Islam is not only a religion. It is also a political ideology. If the government of the Muslim community simply is God’s government, then no other governments can be legitimate. They are all at war with God. As a result, Muslims have typically divided the world into two spheres, known as the Dar al-Islam—the “house of Islam” or “house of submission” to God—and the Dar al-Harb, or “house of war”—those who are at war with God.

Second, it means that Muslims have believed themselves to have a “manifest destiny.” Since God must win in the end, the Dar al-Harb must be brought under the control of Muslim government and made part of the Dar al-Islam.

Third, since the Dar al-Harb by its nature is at war with God, it is unlikely that it will submit to God without a fight. Individual groups might be convinced to lay down their arms and join the Muslim community by various forms of pressure—economic or military—that fall short of war. In history some groups have become Muslim in this way, either fearing Muslim conquest, desiring Muslim military aid against their own enemies, or aspiring to good trade relations with the Muslim world. But many peoples would rather fight than switch. This has been particularly true of Christians, who have put up more resistance to the Muslim advance than have pagan and animistic tribes.

Because of the need to expand God’s dominion by wars of conquest, Islam’s ideology imposes on Muslims the duty to fight for God’s community. This duty is known as *jihad *(Arabic, “struggle, fight”). **Although it is binding on all Muslims, it has been particularly incumbent on those on the edges of the Muslim world, where there was room for expansion. Only by continual jihad could the manifest destiny of Islam to bring the world into submission to God be fulfilled. **

As eminent French sociologist Jacques Ellul notes, Jihad is a religious obligation. It forms part of the duties that the believer must fulfill; it is Islam’s normal path to expansion.”

In other words, your religion teaches that you are obligated to exert violence on non-believers. Is that not so?


#17

[quote=Momofone]The false doctrine of the Roman Catholic church, which started in 606 AD, drove Muhammad away from Christianity. It is well known by anyone who has read the Bible that praying to Mary, adoration of Mary, the assumption of Mary into heaven, the perpetual virginity of Mary are not found in the Bible. Perhaps calling Mary “mother of God” was the single most repulsive and confusing thing Muhammad saw in what he thought was true Christianity. Muhammad evidently thought that the trinity consisted of the Father, the Son and Mary. Koran 5:116, represents Christians as worshipping Mary as the third member of the Trinity, when in fact the only ones worshiping Mary, based upon the record of history, were the pagan Arabs who worship her idol in the Kaba. But the confusion started with the Roman Catholic church who, although they didn’t worship Mary at that time (they do today), they went around calling her “mother of God”. Historically, no one before 300 AD ever referred to Mary as the "Mother of God".
This is from the link posted by the OP

**So, according to this website, it’s our fault that Islam was started by Mohammad? Oh, the power, the power!!! Who know we had such influence, such control???:rolleyes: **
[/quote]

This is funny considering that we have quotes from St. Ignatius of Antioch referring to Mary as the Theotokos or “God Bearer” as far back as A.D. 110. The only reason why certain people didn’t want to call Mary a “God Bearer” in the past is because it sounded as if she existed before the Son when in truth Jesus existed long before his birth. This is why for a time some called Mary the Xristotokos or Christ Bearer instead.


#18

[quote=Rand Al’Thor]I don’t support oppression either, but don’t try to sound like bombing a cafe full of fellow Muslims or killing a group of school children is fighting oppression and tyranny. Christians in Saudi Arabi aren’t doing these things.
[/quote]

Hi Rand,

I never said that bombing civilians is correct or right. I was talking about armed conflict throughout the world. Islam does not allow the killing of Innocents.

I will respond to the quotes you listed laster this weekend.

Munawar


#19

[quote=Munawar] Islam does not allow the killing of Innocents.

I will respond to the quotes you listed laster this weekend.
[/quote]

Could you also answer a couple of sincere questions?

  1. If a war is declared on the Jews/Israel, and a baby is found who is circumcised (i.e., joined into the covenant of Abraham in the Jewish rite), is that baby an innocent or a Jew (enemy)?

  2. How is Surah 5:49-51 to be understood in light of the above question? Are you under any moral obligation to tend to the child?

  3. If Muhammad (Peace of Christ Be Unto Him) committed attrocities against innocents, would that effect his status as a “prophet of God”?

  4. Why was there no outrage in the Islamic world when the WTC’s were bombed? Lots of children died in that attack, but I witnessed many Islamic periodicals (when I was in Bahrain and Oman) and demonstrations rejoicing in this “holy” attack. How can this be reconciled to the assertion “Islam does not allow killing of innocents”?

Thank you,
RyanL


#20

To Shibboleth and Funky Cedars: I know!! Those were not my words. Those were from the website that the OP posted at the begining. I said that right under the quote. Here’s the link.

bible.ca/islam/islam-causes.htm


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