catholics and lutherans worshiping together


#1

How is this possible?

Mission of Atonement
a community of lutherans and catholics

they have a “father” and a “pastor”

worship together and then break for communion in separate sanctuary’s

motaspirit.org/index.php

your thoughts?


#2

Nothing to offer here. This is just downright interesting. And I keep thinking nothing can surprise me anymore. I will sit back and await some thoughts and comments from some Catholics with a bit more Canon Law experience under their belts. One of our appolgists perhaps? Thanks for the new and fresh topic! I’m sure we will all gain some education here.

Peace,

Steven


#3

I’m wondering if the “Catholics” in the group are there by the sanction of the Archbishop of Portland. If you look on the archdiocesan website, under “Beaverton,” in Washington County, this mission isn’t listed as one of the Catholic parishes. Lots of groups call themselves Catholics, but aren’t in communion with the local ordinary or the pope.

It’s appalling, either way. They’ve a woman “pastor” and they’re “inclusive.”


#4

I personally think that it’s down right beautiful. If i were a wagering person, I would bet a great deal that this makes our awesome God very pleased. The two have their differences yes, but to worship together is a wonderous thing. Many folks could learn from this.


#5

From the website

“Knowing that God’s Kin-dom is now” (emphasis mine)

Can’t bring themselves to use the word King because it speaks of patriarchal oppression.

Complete tripe.


#6

Well, it seems like they’ve got a covenant with a mosque…

In October of 2003, in response to September 11 and the rise of discrimination in this country against our neighbors who are of Arab descent or Muslim, we adopted a covenant co-written with members of Bilal Mosque in Beaverton. The covenant reads:
We, the members of Bilal Mosque and Mission of the Atonement, pledge the following, in faith and friendship. We promise to: [LIST=1]
*]Pray for each other regularly, in common worship and in private prayer.
]Studytogether.
]To join this December, in Advent, to share our views on the prophet Moses.

**
*]To join together sometime in 2004 to read a book of common interest and discuss. Possibly invite others.
*] Fast together. During Ramadon of 2004, to join together in a fast for one day, then come together in an evening celebration to break the fast. We will invite other Christian communities, with whom Bilal already has a relationship, to also join in the one-day fast and the evening meal.[/LIST]

I suppose this whole Catholic-Lutheran-(Muslim?) thing is well intentioned, but it sounds like another modernist ecumenical experiment that is contrary to what Catholic worship and tradition are all about and is also contrary to true ecumenism.

And also I have to add that the Sacred Liturgy deserves better. To turn the Mass into an ecumenical worship service is an abomination in my opinion. The Eucharist is most definitely not at the center of this worship and I highly doubt the sacrificial aspect of the Liturgy comes through at all (especially since Lutherans do not even acknowledge this.)


#7

I read over sections of the webpage. My favorite is how the Lutherans and Catholics gather together again at the end for, among other things, sacramental preparation–as if Lutheran and Catholic sacramental theology were compatible. :rolleyes:

As others have posted or suggested, this is yet another example of false ecumenism. Although perhaps not being very appealing because of strict confessional standards, groups and structures like FSSP, Institute of Christ the King, Opus Dei, and Lutheran synodal counterparts: WELS, ELS and to some extent, LCMS, might be the better choice, since at least these groups know what their church teaches, and they don’t mix and match theologies, obfuscating saving truth.


#8

This is quite harsh. Not just Roman Catholics have the Eucharist at the center of their worship. I understand what you are talking about in the sacrifice of the mass, but you should let these folks have a chance to see what they bring to the table instead of assulting with RC doctrine right from the get.


#9

They’re not entirely compatible, but they’re pretty close. The basic piety is similar enough to make this kind of devotional exercise quite reasonable.

As others have posted or suggested, this is yet another example of false ecumenism.

But no one has given an argument for why this is the case. They are not sharing communion, which is the one thing the Catholic Church forbids. It seems to me that this is exactly the kind of thing explicitly encouraged by Vatican II, the Catechism, and Pope Benedict, and objections to it are grounded either in an unthinking prejudice against ecumenism or (more reasonably) in an objection to some of the liberal cliches apparently used by the group.

Edwin


#10

One more sign of the inner corruption & lack of principle of so much Christianity today :frowning:


#11

Go them. :slight_smile:

As for a woman “pastor” as someone pointed out… who cares, really? We don’t believe that men in their congregations are validly ordained anyway so what difference does it make?

If the Roman Catholics, as they call them, are indeed Catholics under the authority of their local bishop and they are not attempting to recieve Lutheran “communion”, then good for everyone for worshiping together.


#12

What these Catholics are practicing is indifferentism, not true ecumenism.

“…it is clear that the Apostolic See cannot on any terms take part in their [non-Catholic] assemblies, nor is it anyway lawful for Catholics either to support or to work for such enterprises; for if they do so they will be giving countenance to a false Christianity, quite alien to the one Church of Christ.”

–Pope Pius XI in Mortalium Animos

And if anybody can produce anything from Vatican II that abrogates Mortalium Animos I’d like to see it.


#13

Greetings and peace be with you lepanto;

What these Catholics are practicing is indifferentism, not true ecumenism.

Christ did not say that the greatest thing we can do is to hang all our beliefs on the authority and the doctrines of the Catholic Church. He gave us the greatest commandments.

So how do we love God with all our hearts, soul, mind and strength, and how do we love Lutherans as we love ourselves?

We must put all our energy into what is greatest, and only when we have done this can we move onto any lesser commands of God, but we must always keep the greatest as a priority above all else.

In the spirit of praying for peace on Earth

Eric


#14

Christ did not say that the greatest thing we can do is to hang all our beliefs on the authority and the doctrines of the Catholic Church. He gave us the greatest commandments.<<

No, but he gave the Catholic Church the authority.

So how do we love God with all our hearts, soul, mind and strength, and how do we love Lutherans as we love ourselves?<<

By trying to bring them back into Christian unity, not by affirming the defects of their religion. Wanting what’s best for the beloved is true love.

Jesus conversed with the Samaritan woman, but He did not worship with her, let alone the pagan Romans.


#15

Actually sounds pretty good to me. I can’t imagine God being displeased.


#16

How wonderful that they observe Ramadan with their Muslim neighbors.

And do the Muslims return the compliment by fasting during Lent with the Christians?

I don’t know which smilie to use:

:crying:

:banghead:

or

:rotfl:

I guess they are GOOD little dhimmis.


#17

I personally think that it’s down right beautiful. If i were a wagering person, I would bet a great deal that this makes our awesome God very pleased.

Since God is not pleased with objectively false worship, I really doubt it-especially in a situation in which Catholics are participating in it to some degree that lends any sort of credibility to it.

If one wants to sit in on a Protestant service, fine-as long as they don’t participate. This is what my traditional priest told me. Likewise, this is the basic practice of a more “solid” Lutheran like the LCMS or the WELS. I like a group that will call a spade a spade (as they see it) because then we can get something done.

Real ecumenism will only take place when we don’t try to fudge our differences. I rather like it better when I know that the Lutherans are material heretics and as far as they are concerned, I’m a heretic to them. No need to try to compromise anything that we both know we cannot compromise on because we both know that true ecumenism is trying to understand each other more clearly with the ultimate intention of converting the other party.


#18

How is singing hymns to the Blessed Trinity objectively false? How is the reading of Sacred Scripture objectively false? How is celebrating the saving work of Christ objectively false? You need to be able to point to something specific that is objectively false, rather than assuming that because Lutherans are heretics on some points therefore they are wrong on all, which is patently not the case.

If one wants to sit in on a Protestant service, fine-as long as they don’t participate. This is what my traditional priest told me.

How does this square with the explicit calls for common worship/prayer on the part of Vatican II and recent Popes?

I like a group that will call a spade a spade (as they see it) because then we can get something done.

Denying that Christians can worship Christ together even if they differ on certain points is not calling a spade a spade. It’s calling a pitchfork a spade out of zeal for spadeliness.

Real ecumenism will only take place when we don’t try to fudge our differences.

Or exaggerate them.

I rather like it better when I know that the Lutherans are material heretics and as far as they are concerned, I’m a heretic to them.

What you like is really not the point. What is true is the point. That being said, I know that we Protestants are material heretics to you. That does not offend me in the slightest (such a reaction would be utterly silly). However, that does not mean that you should rejoice that some Protestants think you are a material heretic. Since you are not a material heretic, you should not be happy that confessional Protestants believe one more false thing in addition to all the others the rest of us believe. You should hope and pray that we see the error of our ways, and if the first error we see is our belief that you are heretical, why should you object to that? It may make things more confusing, but that is not necessarily bad.

In Christ,

Edwin


#19

This is purely unadulterated hatred for anything outside of the Catholic church. i can’t believe that anyone could be so close minded that they would have to sit silently during a worship service of any kind. No wonder Catholics are the very worst Evangelizers in the Christian world known to God.


#20

Well, that’s what I did when I attended my first Catholic Mass. Admittedly, the Mass was in Hungarian, but I refrained from kneeling or even standing for fear of participating in something idolatrous or heretical.

Can’t you imagine worship services you would refuse to participate in? Would you join in the worship of a Hindu god, for instance?

Edwin


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