"Catholics are free to disagree with anything. Just as long as they don't preach it." (Edited Title)

Defense for Universal Salvation:

Hell is empty. Purgatory is filled with people who must serve punishment that is proportionate to their individual crimes. All, not one excluded, will come to love God after they realize how wrong their sins were and how much they need the Grace of God.

Thus Hell is the same thing as Purgatory.

I will study the Holy Bible in close detail to try to prove my argument.

Universal reconciliation

It was traditionally claimed by some western scholars such as the Universalist historian George T. Knight (1911) and Pierre Batiffol (English translation 1914) that a form of universal salvation could be found among some theologians in early Christianity.[35] Origen interpreted the New Testament’s reference (Acts 3:21) to a “restoration of all things”, (Greek: apocatastasis of all things), as meaning that sinners might be restored to God and released from Hell, returning the universe to a state identical to its pure beginnings.[36] This theory of apocatastasis could be easily interpreted[who?] to imply that even devils would be saved, as was the case during the later Origenist controversies.

In the 17th century, a belief in Christian universalism appeared in England and traveled over to what has become the present-day U.S.A. Christian Universalists such as Hosea Ballou argued that Jesus taught Universalist principles including universal reconciliation and the divine origin and destiny of all souls, and that these teachings were further developed by Saint Paul, Saint Peter, and Saint John the Apostle.[citation needed] Ballou also argued that some Universalist principles were taught or foreshadowed in the Old Testament. Critics of universalism maintain that the Bible does not teach universal salvation,[38] while proponents insist that it does.

Recent examples of advocates for the position are Kallistos Ware, a Greek Orthodox bishop and retired University of Oxford theologian who states that many of the ‘Fathers of Church’ postulated the idea of salvation for all, and Saint Silouan of Mt. Athos, who argued that the compassion and love of those in heaven and on earth will extend to eliminating suffering even in hell. In terms of Biblical citations, Father David A. Fisher, Pastor of St. Anthony of Padua Maronite Church and professor of philosophy at Ohio Central State University, has argued that total reconciliation seems to arise from the First Epistle to the Corinthians such as 1 Corinthians 15:22, “As all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ”, and 1 Corinthians 15:28, “God will be all in all.”[39] Verses that seem to contradict the tradition of complete damnation and come up in arguments also include Lamentations 3:31–33 (NIV), “For no one is cast off by the Lord forever. Though he brings grief, he will show compassion, so great is his unfailing love”,[40] and 1 Timothy 4:10 (NIV), “We have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.”[41]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_Hell#Empty_Hell_theory

christianitytoday.com/history/issues/issue-51/origen-model-or-heretic.html

I agree, and usually we find out that when we truly understand what the teachings are we find out it is not the teaching;s we disagree with at all, it was what we felt they meant.

Hi!

Yes!

…this is what many seem to forget–it is God Who is the Great Equalizer; it is God Who will demonstrate the Truth regardless of the many twists and turn that man may make/take.

Maran atha!

Angel

Hi!

…and while the understanding about Revelation and Doctrine has changed as the world and the Church developed, Doctrine and Faith has not changed: One Baptism, One Gospel, One Body, One Church, One Faith, One Lord, One God!

Maran atha!

Angel

Hi!

…these are strong pronouncements!

…so how do you reconcile Apocalypse [Revelation] 20:14-15:

[FONT=“Garamond”][size=]14 Death and Hades were emptied of the dead that were in them; and every one was judged according to the way in which he had lived. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the burning lake. This burning lake is the second death; 15 and anybody whose name could not be found written in the book of life was thrown into the burning lake.

and:

41 Next he will say to those on his left hand, “Go away from me, with your curse upon you, to the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

(St. Matthew 25:41)
By your thesis, it seems to me that in your desire that “all” be Saved you are taking many liberties–much like that “good feeling” theology that we are “all” God’s children.

Maran atha!

Angel

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Hi!

…again, the problem with such “insight” is that it makes void Scriptures that speaks to the wages of sin, and eternal separation from God, and eternal damnation. It also makes the “second death” meaningless.

If all are “saved” at the end, Judgement Day is nothing but empty jargon–which would make God the greatest snake-oil peddler in world history.

This “insight” is the Goldilocks phenomenon reaching into “infinity and beyond!”

Maran atha!

Angel

Hi!

…or ego rejecting the limits that “Church Doctrine” places on man’s “liberties.”

Maran atha!

Angel

Why don’t you get off your self-opinionated posterior and actually look up the Church’s definition of heresy :shrug:.

As it seems to involve public stubbornness and obstinacy, which has been expressly taken off the table here, you don’t seem to know what you are actually saying. In fact it seems the priest was 100% correct and its actually you who may be heretical :eek:.

Its akin to saying i don’t want to hear it, or society does not want to hear it.

I once wore a cross to work and people were frothing at the mouth.

Canon law (CIC):
Canon 750 – § 1. Those things are to be believed by divine and catholic faith which are contained in the word of God as it has been written or handed down by tradition, that is, in the single deposit of faith entrusted to the Church, and which are at the same time proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn Magisterium of the Church, or by its ordinary and universal Magisterium, which in fact is manifested by the common adherence of Christ’s faithful under the guidance of the sacred Magisterium. All are therefore bound to avoid any contrary doctrines.

§ 2. Furthermore, each and everything set forth definitively by the Magisterium of the Church regarding teaching on faith and morals must be firmly accepted and held; namely, those things required for the holy keeping and faithful exposition of the deposit of faith; therefore, anyone who rejects propositions which are to be held definitively sets himself against the teaching of the Catholic Church.

Canon 752 – Although not an assent of faith, a religious submission of the intellect and will must be given to a doctrine which the Supreme Pontiff or the college of bishops declares concerning faith or morals when they exercise the authentic magisterium, even if they do not intend to proclaim it by definitive act; therefore, the Christian faithful are to take care to avoid those things which do not agree with it.

Canon 1371 – The following are to be punished with a just penalty:

[INDENT]1° a person who, apart from the case mentioned in canon 1364 § 1, teaches a doctrine condemned by the Roman Pontiff, or by an Ecumenical Council, or obstinately rejects the teachings mentioned in canon 750 § 2 or in canon 752 and, when warned by the Apostolic See or by the Ordinary, does not retract;

2° a person who in any other way does not obey the lawful command or prohibition of the Apostolic See or the Ordinary or Superior and, after being warned, persists in disobedience.

Canon 1364 – §1. Without prejudice to the prescript of can. 194, §1, n. 2, an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic incurs a latae sententiae excommunication; in addition, a cleric can be punished with the penalties mentioned in can. 1336, §1, nn. 1, 2, and 3.

§2. If contumacy of long duration or the gravity of scandal demands it, other penalties can be added, including dismissal from the clerical state.[/INDENT]

Hi!

Sadly, this is not just a societal problem (vision); non-Catholics have been creating theologies of the empty cross for generations, some of them hold the Catholic practice of wearing a Crucifix with stern disdain… and this “esthetic theology” has become so contagious that even Catholics are supping it up removing the Crucifix from the Altar or relegating it to a tiny “side-showing” or removing Christ from the Cross…

What I find interesting about all of this is that the one Apostle that the non-Catholic hold as a model and the Scriptures that they claim to follow/obey as their source of Truth and Authority compel them to look at the Crucifix (the Cross with Christ being Crucified) as the Sign of Salvation:

[FONT=“Garamond”][size=]22 And so, while the Jews demand miracles and the Greeks look for wisdom, 23 here are we preaching a crucified Christ; to the Jews an obstacle that they cannot get over, to the pagans madness, 24 but to those who have been called, whether they are Jews or Greeks, a Christ who is the power and the wisdom of God. 25 For God’s foolishness is wiser than human wisdom, and God’s weakness is stronger than human strength.

(1 Corinthians 1:22-25)
…and when they talk about boasting (both St. Paul and Scriptures), they talk about boasting in Christ:

2 During my stay with you, the only knowledge I claimed to have was about Jesus, and only about him as the crucified Christ.

(1 Corinthians 2:2)
…the Crucifix is becoming the “scarlet letter.” …how many Scriptural passages speak to Salvation or Justification by Christ’s Resurrection, the Empty Tomb or Christ’s Ascension?

Not a one!

Every passage that speaks to Salvation, Rescue, Justification… well, there’s only One Source: Christ, and Him, as St. Paul says, Crucified!

Maran atha!

Angel

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Romans 4 ( Abraham was not weak in faith…)
19 And he was not weak in faith; neither did he consider his own body now dead, whereas he was almost an hundred years old, nor the dead womb of Sara.
20 In the promise also of God he staggered not by distrust; but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God:
21 Most fully knowing, that whatsoever he has promised, he is able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was reputed to him unto justice.
23 Now it is not written only for him, that it was reputed to him unto justice,
24 But also for us, to whom it shall be reputed, if we believe in him, that raised up Jesus Christ, our Lord, from the dead,
25 Who was delivered up for our sins, and rose again for our justification.

Haydock Commentary
Ver. 25. The eternal Father delivered his Son to death, to expiate our offences; he raised him from the dead for our justification. His death is our redemption; his resurrection is the principal object of our faith. Our faith in the resurrection, is imputed unto justice, as was the faith of Abraham in the promises of God. The apostle here seems to refer our faith and justification only to the resurrection, not to the exclusion of other mysteries of religion, which are all, and every one of them, the objects of our faith. But the resurrection is, as it were, the zeal and consummation of the rest; it eminently includes in itself all the others. (Calmet)

Hi!

Could you expand on your post?, I don’t quite get what you mean to convey.

Maran atha!

Angel

Resurrection is the principal object of our faith and Resurrection is what the Holy Cross represents, but also “eminently includes in itself all the others”.

Hi!

…so St. Paul got it wrong; he should have ignore the Cross and Preached only Resurrection?

Maran atha!

Angel

I don’t understand why you say St. Paul got it wrong, then. Nothing about that in the post.

Hi!

You’ve stated that the Resurrection includes the crucifixion–I understood this to mean that if St. Paul Preached “Resurrection” as the means to Salvation there’s no need to mention Christ’s Crucifixion nor to even think about it.

This, of course, is the non-Catholic understanding–it is the “empty cross/tomb” theology. ‘Forget that cross thing; think about the “good” resurrection thing.’ :dancing::dancing::dancing:

Maran atha!

Angel

There is no comment about forgetting anything, so I don’t know where you came up with it. Note that the Exaltation of the Cross is an ancient Christian feast.

Did you understand the commentary of Calmet with regard to St. Paul “and rose again for our justification”?:

The apostle here seems to refer our faith and justification only to the resurrection, not to the exclusion of other mysteries of religion, which are all, and every one of them, the objects of our faith. But the resurrection is, as it were, the zeal and consummation of the rest; it eminently includes in itself all the others.

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