Catholics Christian?

Brenda,
First, thank you for recognizing that my ears here Catholic Christian as redundant, and for stating that to your ears hear Lutheran Christian as redundant.
Next, the very sad fact is there are those people that refuse to see the Holy Spirit in our Catholic siblings in Christ. I pray their eyes and hearts would be opened. In the meantime, we’ll just have to insist on who and what we (and each other) are. :slight_smile:

Jon

Hi Brenda,
Officially the SDAs do believe in the Trinity. There are some SDAs who do not.

Jon,
I would be interested in joining in a discussion if you want to start one on another thread discussing what the LCMS considers heterodox in the teaching of the Catholic Church. One at a time would be best.

Annie
x-LCMS who is humbled and joyful that the Lord saw fit to pour out His graces to bring her Home.

It’s not “Roman Catholisism”, it’s “Catholic Church” or maybe “Catholic Christianity”. Don’t give in to Proestants on this “Roman” thing.

I disagree with the bolded, due to the next sentance in your post. We are Christianity, the fullest revelation of it. Protestants are also Christians, but with imperfect faith, doctrine and theology. Due to this imperfection, error can (and has, repetedly) crept in.

Of course from our persective this doesn’t make them “unsaved”, it can in some cases (depending upon the accepted doctrine of the beleiver) put them at a disadvantage.

Just to follow up please correct me if I’m wrong on my current understanding on this issue.
Catholics aren’t considered Christians by some because of the belief in the trinity and purgatory, which is considered non-biblical to some groups.
Thanks,
Tommy

No, Trinity is universally accepted which is ironic that they choose to beleive this “non-biblical” concept but reject everything they seem to just not like. Purgatory is among the rejected concepts, as well as most of Marian dogman in most cases.

Thanks for everyones input.

I thought Christians were “followers of Christ.” not “believers in a Triune God.”

If Christians need to believe in a Triune God, then your St. Paul wasn’t a Christian.

Note what he believed in 1 Corinthians 8:5,6.

Paul, in 1 Corinthians 8:5-6, is speaking about polytheism and this should not be confused with any discourse on the Trinity for one very important reason:

The Trinity: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are not three gods; they are not three gods in one.

One God: three natures/persons, ergo: triune nature of God.

God the Father;
God the Son; and
God the Holy Spirit.

253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the “consubstantial Trinity”.83 The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God."84 In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature."85

254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary."86 “Father”, “Son”, “Holy Spirit” are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son."87 They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds."88 The divine Unity is Triune.

255 The divine persons are relative to one another. Because it does not divide the divine unity, the real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another: "In the relational names of the persons the Father is related to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Holy Spirit to both. While they are called three persons in view of their relations, we believe in one nature or substance."89 Indeed "everything (in them) is one where there is no opposition of relationship."90 "Because of that unity the Father is wholly in the Son and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Son is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Son."91

256 St. Gregory of Nazianzus, also called “the Theologian”, entrusts this summary of Trinitarian faith to the catechumens of Constantinople:

Above all guard for me this great deposit of faith for which I live and fight, which I want to take with me as a companion, and which makes me bear all evils and despise all pleasures: I mean the profession of faith in the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. I entrust it to you today. By it I am soon going to plunge you into water and raise you up from it. I give it to you as the companion and patron of your whole life. I give you but one divinity and power, existing one in three, and containing the three in a distinct way. Divinity without disparity of substance or nature, without superior degree that raises up or inferior degree that casts down. . . the infinite co-naturality of three infinites. Each person considered in himself is entirely God. . . the three considered together. . . I have not even begun to think of unity when the Trinity bathes me in its splendor. I have not even begun to think of the Trinity when unity grasps me. . .92

  • The dogma of the Holy Trinity, CCC paragraphs 253-256

Thank you.

Can you show me in God’s word the Bible where it says any of that?

The word “Trinity” or “Triune” or “Godhead” would suffice.

I await your reply.

You know very well the word “trinity” does not appear in the Bible, or don’t you? I was under the impression that JWs knew their Bibles very well, or you’re at least trained to cherry-pick scripture. If that’s not the case, then you’re not a very good JW.

Anyway, the non-usage of the word “trinity” in the Bible does not mean we can’t do an exegesis of scripture to define the triune nature of God. I mean, it hasn’t stopped you guys using the Watch Tower with scripture to pin-point the 1975 apocalypse. I don’t recall finding the year 1975 referred to in scripture, did you find the year 1975 referred to in scripture?

But anyway, a question for you as a JW: if the Holy Spirit is God’s impersonal active force (I believe this is what you guys advocate), why does he directly speak and refer to himself as “I” and “me” in Acts 13:2?

Of course I know the Trinity isn’t in the Bible. That’s my point!

We both know the trinity is not mentioned in the Bible.
Since your lengthy quote in post 29 did not include a single scripture from God’s word, it wasn’t a good example of (I had to look your word up) exegesis.

Brenda V stated in post 12 that Christians are ones who believe in a Triune God.
If there is no mention in the scriptures, and Jesus and his followers believed differently, then what more is there to be said?

1975 has nothing to do with the Trinity. And since the WT never said the apocalypse was due then, your point is lost. (It would take a lot of “exegesizing” to point to 1975 as the apocalypse.)

Acts 13:2?
The New Catholic Encyclopedia admits: “The majority of N[ew] T[estament] texts reveal God’s spirit as something, not someone; this is especially seen in the parallelism between the spirit and the power of God.” (1967, Vol. XIII, p. 575)
If it is the power of God, like most scriptures show, Jehovah was speaking through it.
“I” and “me”. God is one.

No kidding it has nothing to do with the Trinity. The point you failed to recognize was that an exegesis of scripture can be made to give a word to (i.e “define”) concepts found in scripture. Now, I raised the 1975 issue because particular sects can twist scripture to doctrinate something so far removed from what sacred scripture and tradition dictates. The fact the 1975 apocalypse did not take place is evidence of such scripture twisting.

It’s no wonder so many are leaving the JWs; failed prophecies from false prophets.

You haven’t addressed the question. Can you do an exegesis of Acts 13:2 based on what you’ve been taught as a JW?

Eagerly awaiting your response.

Christians MUST believe in the Triune God.
Virtually evetry heresy in the history of Christianity started with the misconception of the nature of God.

There are numerous places in Scripture that identify Jesus and the Holy Spirit as God, along with the Father. A few examples are:
1 Timothy 3:16, Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:23, Isaiah 9:6, Luke 7:16, John 1:1, John 5:18, John 10:30, John 10:33, John 10:36, John 13:13, Mark 14:61-62, Psalm 110:1, John 14:9, John 14:10, John 16:12-15, Philippians 2:6-7.

To deny this is to fall into heresy, my friend

Ignorance
Stuborn Blindness
Obstinate refusal to acknowledge that we do indeed adhere to the teaching of Jesus Christ.
Just plain stupidy
Maliciousness.

Hi Annie,
I give thanks that the Holy Spirit has led you to where hHe wants you to be, and I pray the day comes when by reconciliation Catholics and Lutherans are both considered home.

As for your idea for a thread, here is the LCMS website that discusses our differences. Pick one and let’s dialogue. The non-Catholic forum might be the right place. Just let me know.
lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2542
Jon

Hi Jon,
The above statement is enigmatic to me so I have a question for you that if you answer would go a long way towards helping me understand. That question is, do you believe in objective truth?

I do plan to check out that site if I can find the time but I probably won’t post there.

Annie

The Catholic Church is the Church founded by Jesus Christ. It is the Church that compiled the New Testament and, there were no protestant churches until the 16th century. In fact, until then, the Catholic Church was ly Christian Church.

You might ask your protestant friends the following question.

Do you have any idea when your church was founded and by whom? You may find this enlightening:
If you are of the Catholic faith, Jesus Christ founded your Church in the year A.D. 30. (The Church which Jesus Christ founded is the one to whom He revealed and who declared and decreed which books are to be contained in the New Testament. See Pope Damasus I declaration of the New Testament in A.D. 382 )
If you are Lutheran, your religion was founded by Martin Luther, an ex-monk in the Catholic Church, in 1517.
If you are Anabaptist, your religion was founded by Nicholas Storch and Thomas Munzer in Germany in 1521.
If you belong to the Church of England (Anglican), your religion was founded by King Henry VIII in the year 1534 because the pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to remarry.
If you belong to the Mennonites, your church was started in 1536 by Menno Simons in Switzerland.
If you are a Calvinist, Jon Calvin started your belief system in 1555 in Switzerland.
If you are a Presbyterian, your religion was founded when John Knox brought the teachings of John Calvin to Scotland in the Year 1560.
If you are Unitarian, your group developed in Europe in the 1500s.
If you are a Congregationalist, your religion branched off Puritanism in the early 1600s in England.
If you are a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your religion to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam in 1607.
If you are Dutch Reformed, Michaelis Jones founded your church in New York in 1628.
If you are a Methodist, your religion was founded by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744.
If you are an Episcopalian, your church came from England to the American colonies. It formed a separate religion founded by Samuel Seabury in 1789.
If you are a Campellite Christian Church, your religion was started by Thomas and Alexander Campbell and Barton Stone at a revival held at Bushy Creek around 1836.
If you are a Mormon (Latter-day Saints), Joseph Smith started your church in Palmyra, N.Y. in 1830.
If you are Seventh Day Adventist, your religion was founded by Ellen Whitein 1844 in Washington, New Hampshire.
If you worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865.
If you are a Christian Scientist, you look to 1879 as the year your religion was founded by Mary Baker Eddy.
If you are a Jehovah’s Witness, your religion was founded by Charles Taze Russell in Pennsylvania in the 1870s.
If you’re Church of Christ, your church broke of from the Campellites in 1906.
If you are Pentecostal, your religion was started in the Topeka, Kansas in 1901 by Charles F. Parkham
If you are Assemblies of God your church grew out of Pentecostalism in 1914 in Hot Springs, Az.
If you are a member of Four-square Gospel, your church was started by Aimee Semple McPherson in L.A. in 1917.
If your Church of Christ, your church broke of from the Campellites in 1906.
If you are Calvary Chapel, Chuck Smith founded your church in Costa Mesa, Ca, 1965
If your organization is “evangelical nondenominational Christian” your group started in the 1970s by protestants.

Also see here: catholicscomehome.org/epic/epic120.phtml

Annie39;5952770]Hi Jon,
The above statement is enigmatic to me so I have a question for you that if you answer would go a long way towards helping me understand. That question is, do you believe in objective truth?

Enigmatic? OK, I was’t attempting to be. For me it was a pretty straightforward prayer for you, and for unity among our communions.

I do plan to check out that site if I can find the time but I probably won’t post there.

No, no. I meant you could post it on the Non-Catholic Religions section here at CAF. I look forward to it.

Jon

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