Catholics Christian?

Hi again Jon,

The reason that it is enigmatic, as I see it, is that I don’t know how we could have unity when our beliefs are so fundamentally different. Do you think that the LCMS would agree with Transubstantiation and do you think that the pastors would agree to either be ordained in the Church or seek employment in the secular society?

And please notice I had written “I would be interested in joining in a discussion if you want to start one on another thread discussing what the LCMS considers heterodox in the teaching of the Catholic Church. One at a time would be best.”

Would you name a heterodox doctrine that is taught by the Catholic Church in your opinion?

Thank you in advance,
Annie

=Annie39;5953423]Hi again Jon,
The reason that it is enigmatic, as I see it, is that I don’t know how we could have unity when our beliefs are so fundamentally different. Do you think that the LCMS would agree with Transubstantiation and do you think that the pastors would agree to either be ordained in the Church or seek employment in the secular society?

How we could, Annie, is by the power and leadership of the Holy Spirit. I would say that there are some fundamental differences between us, but I would not say our beliefs are fundamentally different. But if we come to dialogue with the view that we cannot overcome our differences, then you are correct, we cannot. But I see the many documents since Vatican II as evidence that language can be found to bridge gaps and bring us closer together.
You mentioned Transubstantiation and Holy Orders as areas of difference, and clearly they are ( and we shall see how Anglicans priests are handled in this way). There are differences between many of us who believe in the real presence: differences between Catholics and Orthodox, Lutherans and Anglicans, but I hold a confidence in the Holy Spirit that we can be brought together on an issue such as this. Also so with clergy.

Would you name a heterodox doctrine that is taught by the Catholic Church in your opinion?

Don’t know if this would be considered “heterodox” but, for me, this remains the largest issue.

  1. The authority of the pope.
    Unlike the Roman Catholic Church, Lutherans do not believe that the office of the papacy as such has any divine authority, or that Christians need to submit to the Pope’s authority to be “true” members of the visible church.

Jon

Authority of Pope?
Matthew16:18 Jesus says to Simon Peter, “You are Peter,and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it”
So using scripture to defend the papacy Jesus established his Church not on a congregational model, but on the model of personal leadership.
The term pope is from the Greek word pappas which means “Father.” During the first three centuries this term was used of any bishop. Eventually the term was applied to the to the Bishop of Alexandria, and finally by the sixth century it was reserved for the Bishop of Rome.
The Protestant idea that the papacy was a fifth-century invention relies on a false understanding of the papacy itself. After the Church attained official status during Constantine’s reign,the Church hierarchy did indeed become more influential in the kingdoms of this world, but that is not the essence of the papacy. The essence of the papacy lies in Jesus’ ordination of Peter as his royal steward, and his commission to assume the role of Good Shepherd in Christ’s absence.
The idea that the Church had become corrupt and departed form the true gospel and that a new church that is faithful to the New Testament can be created was the fundamental reason that spurred the Protestant Reformation. The pope is what he has always been, the universal pastor of Christ’s Church, the steward of Christ’ kingdom and the Rock on which Christ builds his Church.
Reference This Rock November/December 2009

Thank you tcreed. I was about to log on to reply to Jon but I’m glad you beat me to it. I didn’t think to check out K. Keating’s work.

Jon as you can see, the Pope’s authority is biblical. I realize that you don’t agree with the interpretation nor does the LCMS but it is biblical.

If the Holy Spirit can lead men into writing works that are “God breathed” He can and does lead men into all truth; those men to whom Jesus gave the authority. The passing on of that authority is also biblical.

As I see it, the different beliefs between the Lutherans and the Catholics regarding the Eucharist and the authority of the Pope (to name just 2) are pretty fundamental to the faith.

Annie

Truth nugget.

Hi Annie and tcreed,
You both speak very well for your church, and thanks or taking the time to respond. You are correct, though, that I do not completely agree with the CC’s interpretation of the power of the Pope, and I may not be able to until the CC and the Orthodox can come to such an agreement. I do, however, believe he is more than just the bishop of Rome.

As I see it, the different beliefs between the Lutherans and the Catholics regarding the Eucharist and the authority of the Pope (to name just 2) are pretty fundamental to the faith.

It is curious to me that Catholics will say this about Lutherans, but then say it isn’t a fundamental difference with Orthodoxy, even though their rejections of papal primacy and Transubstantiation are similar to ours. It is a another thread I 've been meaning to start.

Jon

Others have outlined possible motives below, but it can’t be said enough, that the Catholic Church is the Church spoken of in the New Testament and founded by our Lord and Saviour Jesus, the Christ. Not only are Catholics ‘Christians’, but they were the only Christian Church for most of the time since Jesus himself was among us. I acknowledged that long before I was called to conversion myself.

Peace to you,

Steven

Hi Jon
Lutherans believe in consubstantiation. This is heresy and a fundamental difference. However, it would not matter if the Lutherans believed in Transubstantiation or not. Lutherans do not have valid orders. My husband believes in Transubstantiation but he cannot consecrate the bread and wine either.

As for the Orthodox, they have valid orders because Bishops who can consecrate other bishops broke from the Church. That was schism, not heresy. They do believe in the same doctrine regarding The Eucharist. I don’t know enough about their Church to know if they use the same terminology as the Catholic Church.

The doctrine of the Papacy in the Catholic Church is indeed a fundamental belief and that is the main stumbling block in our hope for reunification.

Annie

Jon

Yes Jon, we have swerved off topic but you write “Finally, I hope you will accept my sincere prayer of thanks that the Holy Spirit has led you where he wants you to be nothing less than that, clear and not enigmatic”

Yes, I’m sure that your prayer is sincere. But sincerely misguided. It is pretty much new age thought (something that I am fighting in my own family) that there is one truth for you, one for me and one for the little boy who lives down the lane. Truth is not amorphous, God is not an amorphous being. If the Holy Spirit led me to the Catholic Church, and I assure you that He did, that is where he wants you to be as well.

When I was a Lutheran (LCMS) even Lutherans I knew (some are still my friends) used the word consubstantiation to describe their doctrine that I have posted and emphasized below. So, “that which we call a rose. By any other name would smell as sweet”, and one could call the doctrine below charlie but it would still be the same as consubstantiation.

I went to the site that you posted but could not determine which synod the Lutherans were members of and which Orthodox body the Orthodox were members of. In both cases it makes much difference.
One could find even in the Catholic Church very unorthodox theologians. They are interviewed with some regularity on news programs. I assure you it causes consternation in many orthodox believing Catholics.

The Catholic Church is already breathing with both Her lungs. You might be interested in doing an internet search on Eastern Rite Catholics. I attended for a while an Eastern Rite Ruthenian Catholic Church. I asked the Priest what the difference is between the Divine Liturgy (Called the Mass in the west) in the Orthodox Church and his parish. He told me that they are virtually identical.

Annie

Below is from an LCMS website:
Q. What does the LCMS mean by “in, with and under the forms” of bread and wine?

A. Perhaps the most succinct formulation of the Lutheran position on the Real Presence is that found in Article VII of the Formula of Concord, Solid Declaration:

“In addition to the words of Christ and of St. Paul (the bread in the Lord’s Supper ‘is true body of Christ’ or ‘a participation in the body of Christ’), we at times also use the formulas ‘under the bread, with the bread, in the bread.’ We do this to reject papistic transubstantiation and to indicate the sacramental union [emphasis added] between the untransformed substance of the bread and the body of Christ…so in the Holy Supper the two essences, the natural bread and the true, natural body of Christ, are present together here on earth in the ordered action of the sacrament, though the union of the body and blood of Christ with the bread and wine is not a personal union, like that of the two natures of Christ, but a sacramental union” (emphasis added; 35-38). lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2591
[/quote]

=Annie39;5961790
Yes, I’m sure that your prayer is sincere. But sincerely misguided.

I am sorry you feel that way. Particularly on a thread where the OP is opining about the fact that some Protestants claim Catholics are not Christian, it just seems ironic that you would take this position.

If the Holy Spirit led me to the Catholic Church, and I assure you that He did, that is where he wants you to be as well.

Perhaps so, perhaps not. But even the Catholic Church recognizes that the Holy Spirit uses the Lutheran Church to extend sanctifying grace.

When I was a Lutheran (LCMS) even Lutherans I knew (some are still my friends) used the word consubstantiation to describe their doctrine that I have posted and emphasized below. So, “that which we call a rose. By any other name would smell as sweet”, and one could call the doctrine below charlie but it would still be the same as consubstantiation.

That some of your friends, and perhaps you yourself, were poorly catechized is unfortunate. I here Catholics hear bemoan the same thing within the CC.

The Catholic Church is already breathing with both Her lungs. You might be interested in doing an internet search on Eastern Rite Catholics. I attended for a while an Eastern Rite Ruthenian Catholic Church. I asked the Priest what the difference is between the Divine Liturgy (Called the Mass in the west) in the Orthodox Church and his parish. He told me that they are virtually identical.

As I understand it, Pope John Paul II used that term, “two lungs” to describe, the CC and Orthodoxy not in communion with Rome.

Below is from an LCMS website:
Q. What does the LCMS mean by “in, with and under the forms” of bread and wine?

A. Perhaps the most succinct formulation of the Lutheran position on the Real Presence is that found in Article VII of the Formula of Concord, Solid Declaration:

“In addition to the words of Christ and of St. Paul (the bread in the Lord’s Supper ‘is true body of Christ’ or ‘a participation in the body of Christ’), we at times also use the formulas ‘under the bread, with the bread, in the bread.’ We do this to reject papistic transubstantiation and to indicate the sacramental union [emphasis added] between the untransformed substance of the bread and the body of Christ…so in the Holy Supper the two essences, the natural bread and the true, natural body of Christ, are present together here on earth in the ordered action of the sacrament, though the union of the body and blood of Christ with the bread and wine is not a personal union, like that of the two natures of Christ, but a sacramental union” (emphasis added; 35-38). lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2591

Yes, and no mention of the Aristotelian, philosophical construct that is the foundation of both Consubstantiation and Transubstantiation.
I have enjoyed our conversation.

Blessings,
Jon

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