Catholics...For Your Advise.

No offense I hope, just trying to make Catholics ‘see’ how some of us think.

1 – If the Sacraments themselves can save, doesn’t that mean that if a deviously evil man were to also partake of the Holy Communion, he would join you in your heaven? (please don’t reply and say he wouldn’t attend because even the evil Pharisees went for baptism at the Jordan river)

2 – If Mary was the mother of God, just because she gave birth to Jesus who is God, doesn’t that mean that if you put the foetus of humans into the body of a monkey, then that monkey would be the mother of humans? (no offense, but it’s the closest analogy I can think of).

3 – If the Catholic church is above scripture like what some people here say to explain why they do not follow certain scriptural teachings, wouldn’t that be refuting what God taught? So, is God the master or the disciple?

Hope to see some clear and objective answers.

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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

2 – If Mary was the mother of God, just because she gave birth to Jesus who is God, doesn’t that mean that if you put the foetus of humans into the body of a monkey, then that monkey would be the mother of humans? (no offense, but it’s the closest analogy I can think of).

That has to be the single worst analogy I’ve ever heard. Anyway, the answer is no.

3 – If the Catholic church is above scripture

See the response to question 1.

Hope to see some clear and objective answers.

I’m hoping to see some clear and objective questions. :o

  1. Where do you find this belief that the Sacraments can themselves save? The Sacraments are means of grace; God is savior.

  2. Mary is the Mother of God because Jesus whom is both human and God. A better analogy would be ourselves. We have both a spiritual part and material part in one nature; we receive the material part from our parents but our parents aren’t just parents to material part but to the person. Similarly, Jesus whom is both God and man is one person–that one person had a Mother. That divine person had a mother–hence the Mother of God.

  3. Sorry. I don’t answer these kind of questions before you’ve not proven anything in your premise. The CC has never said she is above any scriptural teaching and it is your interpretation that she doesn’t follow them and your interpretation on what “God taught.” This isn’t a question but a statement. Please come back when you have more than opinions to support your question.

no offence? you have got to be the single most, hateful fundamentalist ive ever met. just going by what youve posted on other threads. you have very little knowlege of the Catholic faith, and i even question if you have the Spirit of Christ in you, as proud and arrogant as you are. i think you should do some serious self examination to see if you are in the the body of Christ. does your pastor teach you to spew your venom. how dare you compare the Blessed Mother to a monkey! you do not even deserve an answere to anything. i for one will not cast my pearls before… well you know.:slapfight:

What a ridiculous mishmash of disrespect and total misunderstanding.

Read a book.

then you will post your honest questions on the appropriate forum, which in your case is apologetics and scripture, where you will also find links to commonly asked questions

we are already quite familiar with how people think when they come up with “how often do you beat your wife” type questions, thank you for your concern. What you are educating us on is how non-Christians think since the issues you bring up have been answered duly for 2000 years in Christian belief.

First, the Sacraments themselves are not what saves us. IT is the Grace given to us by the Holy Spirit through them. Second, you must understand how the disposition of the one receiving the sacrament matters. If a man in a state of mortal sin receives communion, not only does he NOT get the grace, he actually commits a more serious sin (as Paul said, being guilty of the Body and Blood of Christ, he heeps condemnation upon him). A person cannot be in open rebellion with God and think that the sacraments can help him. Even confession, whose main function is to restore the relationship between a sinner and God, has no effect if the person has no intention of actually repenting or if they do not confess all their sins intentionally.

2 – If Mary was the mother of God, just because she gave birth to Jesus who is God, doesn’t that mean that if you put the foetus of humans into the body of a monkey, then that monkey would be the mother of humans? (no offense, but it’s the closest analogy I can think of).

MOther of God is to tell us about her son. Jesus is Truly GOd and Truly Man.

3 – If the Catholic church is above scripture like what some people here say to explain why they do not follow certain scriptural teachings, wouldn’t that be refuting what God taught? So, is God the master or the disciple?

Hope to see some clear and objective answers.

.

Not sure what you are asking. The Catholic Church follows everything in the Bible that we are supposed to follow

Hi Mosacked,

I’d try to answer your answers to the best of my ability.

  1. The 7 sacraments that have been instituted are not things that save. As a previous poster has mentioned, it is God that saves. What we understand by the 7 sacraments, is that these are “efficacious signs of grace, instituted by Christ and entrusted to the Church, by which divine life is dispensed to us. The visible rites by which the sacraments are celebrated signify and make present the graces proper to each sacrament. They bear fruit in those who receive them with the required dispositions.” (CCC 1131) And these sacraments are based on scripture.

I believe that you know that Catholics believe in the the Real Presence of the Eucharist. Taking your view for the sake of argument, I believe that you have found your answer in the very point of the Pharisees going to Baptism. You realise that John the Baptist, admonished them, because their baptism was not filled with true repentance. Similarly, if there is not a real love for the body of Christ, but as you say a “deviously evil” intention/ personality, John the Baptist has already answered on that point.

  1. Mary is the Mother of God. Firstly, I believe that you would agree that in order for Jesus to save us, he would have to be both Completely God and Completely Divine. If we accept this, than it should not be logically difficult to accept that, Jesus being both Divine and Human, Mary had indeed given birth to God. To say that Mary is not the Mother of God is akin to saying that Mary is not the Mother of Jesus, or Mary is the Mother of the Human Jesus. Which in a way is denying Jesus. Essentially, Mother of God is an honourary title, derived from the fullness of grace, any bounteous praise that Scripture shows us is lavished on Mary by Archangel Gabriel and Elizabeth.

The analogy you brought up is not entirely correct. Firstly a Monkey is not fully Human vice versa (we are different species, so biologically speaking, reproduction is impossible). If you follow me on the explanation above, than even if what you say is possible, the Monkey is mere the mother of a human.

  1. From how it seems, your question posits the belief of Sola Sciptura, the Church believes in Sola Verbum Dei (on the Word of God only). The Church sees that all scripture is profitable, because it is inspired by God. Remember however, that just as Paul exhorted us to profit from scripture, he also tells us to hold fast to the traditions taught by the church. This is also because as the Gospel of John tells us, there are many other things not written down. The word of God is greater than the bible only, and includes tradition as well as the authority of the Magisterium of the Church. The Magisterium clarifies what God (the master) tells us, because we believe that “the Gates of Hell will not prevail against it.”, so that as Christians we do not run afoul of God.

Hope this replies to your views.

Zach Isaiah

The “sacraments themselves” do not save.

They are the means of receiving sanctifying grace. They do not save.

No.

Jesus wasn’t just “put into” Mary. He was conceived. She is **really **his mother. He is both human and divine, completely. He was incarnated.

The Church teaches and interprets Scripture. No, the Church does not refute anything that came from Christ, she preserves and teaches what Christ taught.

As others have stated, St Paul was quite clear on the subject.

That’s probably important if you’re a monkey and your purpose was to save the ‘monkeys’ to a better state.

See God. He did the whole thing as it is!

A banana a day…

I doubt any other monkey thinks, let alone, this way.

:cool:

I am glad it is just what you think. let tell me what i think about … second thought.
non…

it seems to me you are putting yourself above God by coming here and demand answers from Catholics. you are not getting nothing from me.

my advice to you is: leave your path of error and seek the Truth where the Truth is and not where you think She is.

another thing, that is what you get for thinking to much, you get all wrong.

:knight1::knight2:

A 'deviously evil person" who was unrepentant, who partook of Holy Communion, would be committing sacrilege and would have that additional sin also on his soul. He is not sharing in the Sactament, but betraying the Lord, with the kiss of Judas.
It is not the Sacraments that save, but God who gives the graces of the Sacraments that saves, so the question itself is mistaken.

Mary is the Mother of Jesus who is God, truly man and truly God, and it is in that sense that she is called the Mother of God. It is not to say that Mary is the mother of the Eternal Creator whose beautiful creation she is, and we Catholics don’t claim that she is the Mother of the Creator.

The questions have been answered already by others, but your questions themselves are based on misunderstanding of the Church.

God bless you.

There should be no time for the uncouth here!:eek::eek::eek: Carlan

1

Goodness. :rolleyes: If you have to start by saying “no offense”…

Just a suggestion: perhaps you could form your three points in the nature of nonconfrontational questions, and await answers from learned Catholics.
Posts framed the way you have, regardless of which side you are on, tends to make people defensive. Hope that makes sense.
Jon

To All:
It is the lies, myths, etc. like these questions posed by Mosacked that are rampant among the majority of Protestants. The trouble is that they believe them and rarely bother to find the truth. At least Mosacked is interested in finding out if they are true. So, we as
Catholics should respond in all charity to explain the Catholic faith. It is up to him as to
whether or not to accept them. Sooner or later he will realize that the Catholic Church is THE TRUE CHURCH that Jesus Christ founded on Peter.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem

Colossians 2;2
that their hearts may be encouraged as they are brought together in love, to have all the richness of fully assured understanding, for the knowledge of the mystery of God, Christ,
3
in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
4
2 I say this so that no one may deceive you by specious arguments.
8
See to it that no one captivate you with an empty, seductive philosophy according to human tradition, according to the elemental powers of the world 3 and not according to Christ.
9
For in him dwells the whole fullness of the deity 4 bodily,
10
and you share in this fullness in him, who is the head of every principality and power.
12
You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

The Catholic Church canonized the books of the bible for you and me. The Catholic Church came before the New Testament was ever written. This does not mean that the Catholic Church is above scripture. The Word of God made flesh lives in the Catholic Church which is Jesus body, for we are partakers of Jesus divinity in his Sacraments of which Jesus instituted in his apostles.

2 Peter 1:1
1 Symeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of equal value to ours through the righteousness of our God and savior Jesus Christ:
2
may grace and peace be yours in abundance through knowledge 2 of God and of Jesus our Lord.
3
3 4 His divine power has bestowed on us everything that makes for life and devotion, through the knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and power.
4
Through these, he has bestowed on us the precious and very great promises, so that through them you may come to share in the divine nature

Peace be with you

I have to say that I appreciate the replies from ZacIsaiah, Ralphinal and Gabriel12. All of you can be sure that I read ALL of your posts. I do not post this question in an attempt to insult…it is really just putting my ‘thinking’ into letters.

Firstly, I must state that I came to the conclusion that sacraments themselves save the soul because that was the persistent & prevalent position undertaken by almost all the catholics I have spoken to so far. So yes, your clarification here really helps. The next time, a catholic who attempts to excuse non-compliance to scripture and tells me that the sacrament themselves save, I’ll refer them to you.

Secondly, the analogy of the monkey-human is the closest analogy I can think of. So, far I have not received a convincingly satisfactory reply on this except for the one by ZacIsaiah who replied that it is MERELY a title. Yet it is a title too big for my digestion, because to me, God has no beginning and so He cannot have a mother.

Finally, before we can conclude that the Church is above scripture, we must first PROVE beyond a doubt that it is the True Church led personally by Jesus. Since that cannot be achieved, how then can I agree with the stand that this church has the right to over-write???

Let’s clear it one step at a time.

.

Hi Mosacked,

If you are willing, it would be helpful if you could give us an example of what was it that you and your catholic friends were talking about. Because, in my experience, I have come to realise that a lot of us have different understandings of different words (and its not just between christians and catholics, my country is a eclectic mix or many religions). It would be more conducive to discussion if the issues are made more explicit.

With regards to the title for Mary, it’s alright if you cannot accept her title. Hopefully you can understand the meaning and the rationale behind the title we give her. I understand your apprehensions regarding catholic devotion to Mary, because to many christians she played a role in the birth but not in the salvation, and the catholic devotion to Mary seems to be excessive.

I would like to give you an idea into how catholics view Mary, so as to explain our devotion to her. All of us can agree that God had honoured Mary by blessing her as the vessel of Christ. And Christ in his life, listened to his mother and honoured her (e.g Wedding at Cana). In the Gospel of John, we see that Jesus tells John, “here is your mother” and tells Mary “here is your son” and he took her into his heart/home. Catholics understand this as Christ entrusting us into her care, and exhorting us to take her into our hearts. If God could deem it such as to fill her with grace, then certainly we can honour the same woman that God has chosen to honour. Note that this honour, is not worship of Mary. Yes, we sign praises in her name, we have a theology about her, we ask her to pray for us (e.g Ave Maria, Salve Regina) but we know that she is not God. Rather she points us to “do everything [Jesus] tells us”. She brings us even closer to Christ. There is a Mandarin phrase that goes, “love a persons house, and even the crow on his house”. Catholic worship is in the Mass, and while we have feastdays (think of it as anniversaries), no one in his right mind would celebrate such a thing as the mass of mary.

With regards to your last point, could I suggest that you check out Rome Sweet Home and The Lamb’s Supper by Scott Hahn. Scott Hahn was a former Presbyterian Minister who became a catholic. In the first book, which is about his journey into the church, he addresses some of the apprehensions that you have about the truth of the church (which I guess you agree is intrinsically linked to the Papacy and the Mass, and from there Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide etc). The second book is about the Catholic Mass.

Regards
Zach Isaiah

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