Catholics / Mormons / Changed Doctrine


#1

The Mormon faith claims that the early Church changed the Doctrine’s, the teachings of Christ and the Apostles. I want this topic to be without argument. Just the facts. The claim is that the true Church vanished from the earth around the death of the last Apostle. Let’s see how the Catholic Church stands up to this claim. How the Mormon Church stands up to this Claim. I will start with the following. You can add to it. Let’s work with Scripture and the earliest Church writings before the fall that the Mormons claim. Say before 200 A.D. To see which Church is still like the ancient Church. Mormons can show us where they have retained these lost teachings. Show us what was lost and when it was lost. There should be plenty of evidence on this prior to the discovery of the Golden plates, so lets stay with the early writings and Scripture.

*St. Justin describes the Mass. (The year is 150 A.D.; he is a martyr who was beheaded in 165 at Rome Italy *

“The people gathered together on Sunday, the ‘Lord’s Day’ participated in prayers and hymns, and listened to readings from the Old Testament and from the writings of the apostles. Then as always, bread and wine and water were offered and the words of Jesus at the Last Supper were prayed by the one presiding. The people received the body and blood of Christ, and the Holy Communion was brought to the sick. A collection was taken for the poor and the needy.”
St. Paul wrote: "For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes."1 Cor 11:26. He also wrote: “The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? Because the loaf of bread is one, we, though many, are one body for we all partake of the one loaf” (1 Cor 11:16-17 and 1 Cor 12). Through the centuries, the Mass has remained fully intact. The Mass takes place every 2 minutes somewhere on the earth, 7 days a week, all year long except on Good Friday
(1 Cor 11:26).

***St. Ignatius of Antioch’s Letter to the Smyrnaeans on the Mass. (The year is 110 A.D.)

***He became the third bishop of Antioch, succeeding St. Evodius, who was the immediate successor of St. Peter. He received the martyr’s crown as he was thrown to wild beasts in the arena. He wrote:

“They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not profess that the Eucharist (Jn 6:66) is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead.”
It is the Mass that has brought Christ into the present. It is the sign given as you contemplate all of chapter 6 in John’s gospel.


#2

Rich, it is nice to see you post again. It’s been a while since I’ve seen you post. Too bad no one has responded to your post. I think it might be helpful for all to post the Catholic Church’s views on the Mass and Eucharist throughout history. Obviously LDS people think The Church fell into apostasy after approximately 150, but if you show what Christians before that time believed, and how The Church has held that belief throughout the ages, it might make a stronger case. I would offer to throw in some Church Father’s writings, but it could take me a while as this week is rather busy for me.


#3

As an ex-mormon I’ve found the belief in the “great apostasy” is founded on reverse logic (the great apostasy must have occured because Jospeh Smith recieved the restored gospel). An objective person would look at first to see if the church had indeed changed it’s doctrine. A typical Mormon thinks it MUST have occured because the of “restoration”. As long as a person holds first and foremost in their mind the belief that a restoration occured, then no amount of proof will dissuade them that there was no great apostasy. There are very few people willing to search for and accept the truth wherever it may lead them. There are very few people willing to look at their own religion objectively. Without objectivity you can’t be logical. Explaining the positions of the ECF is an exercise in logic. But, you can’t use logic to refute the illogical. That said, carry on. There may be a few LDS here that are sincerely seeking the truth and are willing to accept it no matter what.


#4

I found that to be the case with one of my LDS friends. I mentioned something about the apostasy and she said “that’s exactly what happened”. She went on to explain how there was this apostasy and Joseph Smith got the restored Gospel. She made these comments like every person with any common sense would know they are true. I just didn’t get that. It would have been a much more effective response if she had shown me how and when this apostasy happened.


#5

I always thought that the mormons view of an apostasy had to be wrong because it makes Christ a liar. He said, Matt. 16:18, “And so I say to you, you are Pater, and upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.” If there were an apostasy, then satan won which makes Christ a liar.

To me this verse says it all.


#6

[quote=moira]I always thought that the mormons view of an apostasy had to be wrong because it makes Christ a liar. He said, Matt. 16:18, “And so I say to you, you are Pater, and upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.” If there were an apostasy, then satan won which makes Christ a liar.

To me this verse says it all.
[/quote]

I’ve tried to use this in defense of the Catholic church to Mormons. They simply say Christ was right. The gates of hell did not prevail against his church because God took it away to preserve it and now he has brought it back through Joseph Smith. In other words, they don’t equate the removal of the church from the earth as hell prevailing. Their church is here so obviusly the devil didn’t win.


#7

[quote=Tmaque]I’ve tried to use this in defense of the Catholic church to Mormons. They simply say Christ was right. The gates of hell did not prevail against his church because God took it away to preserve it and now he has brought it back through Joseph Smith. In other words, they don’t equate the removal of the church from the earth as hell prevailing. Their church is here so obviusly the devil didn’t win.
[/quote]

So there is almost no way to refute their apostasy theory. My friend, a mormon for the last 10 yrs, said she felt a warm feeling (the burning in the bossom) and just knew that it was the right church. If all it takes is a warm fuzzy feeling, well…anything can make you feel that if you let it. When I had baby blues after childbirth I could cry and feel warm at a Hostess comercial.http://forums.catholic.com/images/icons/icon10.gif


#8

The warm fuzzy is easy for me to refute because of anecdotal evidence in my own experiences. Throughout my conversion to Catholicism from being a Baptist (and even now) I got all kinds of warm fuzzies. If the warm fuzzy is such an undeniable measure of truth, then why did it lead me to “The Church of Satan”?

Either the warm fuzzy was wrong, or the Book of Mormon is wrong about the Catholic Church (at least from the standpoint of the Mormon).

But the previous poster was right, you cannot fight ill logic with logic. In other words, you do not bring a stick to a gunfight. The proper tool has to be used here.

In my experiences, the warm fuzzy was right on. There is nothing wrong with that. Ours is a universal Church – meaning “universal” in every possible interpretation of the word. We all have our different gifts. Some of us have logic focused like a laser beam, some of us have a more “intuitive” approach. But that does not mean we cannot journey to the same Unending Reality (God).

And when it comes to warm fuzzies, the Catholic Church has more than a dumptruck’s worth. We could talk about the saints in the past like St. Francis or more recently like Padre Pio and Mother Theresa (only blesseds now, I know). We could point to our art and music: from Michelangelo to Gaudi, from Handel to U2. And what movies have been doing outstanding at the box office? Gibson’s Passion and Tolkein’s Lord of the Rings.

People like Mormons, SDAs, and extreme fundamental Protestants always come to the table with the foregone conclusion that Holy Mother Church is the sole cause for all history’s evils and all good can somehow be traced to forces that fought against her.

That is the HATE side of America’s (and Northern Europe’s) love-hate relationship with Catholicism. But the love side still cannot hide its appreciation. The whole world benefits from her place in history: hospitals and medical science, universities, constitutional governments, knighthood, music, the intrinsic dignity of the individual human, the sciences (oh, and the Bible). The Church is responsible for increasing the lifespan and quality of life for every human on Earth, regardless of their faith. How’s THAT for a warm fuzzy?

We need to use these undeniable facts and our own personal encounters with the Holy Spirit to break the barrier of ill logic and bring these people closer to the Light. It is difficult but not impossible. When you look at the ill logic from another angle, it is clear that it is a kind of bigotry (bigotry is ill logic). You cannot talk a person out of being hateful, you have to love them out of it. :wink:


#9

[quote=StubbleSpark]The warm fuzzy is easy for me to refute because of anecdotal evidence in my own experiences. Throughout my conversion to Catholicism from being a Baptist (and even now) I got all kinds of warm fuzzies. If the warm fuzzy is such an undeniable measure of truth, then why did it lead me to “The Church of Satan”?

And when it comes to warm fuzzies, the Catholic Church has more than a dumptruck’s worth. We could talk about the saints in the past like St. Francis or more recently like Padre Pio and Mother Theresa (only blesseds now, I know). We could point to our art and music: from Michelangelo to Gaudi, from Handel to U2. And what movies have been doing outstanding at the box office? Gibson’s Passion and Tolkein’s Lord of the Rings.

That is the HATE side of America’s (and Northern Europe’s) love-hate relationship with Catholicism. But the love side still cannot hide its appreciation. The whole world benefits from her place in history: hospitals and medical science, universities, constitutional governments, knighthood, music, the intrinsic dignity of the individual human, the sciences (oh, and the Bible). The Church is responsible for increasing the lifespan and quality of life for every human on Earth, regardless of their faith. How’s THAT for a warm fuzzy?

. :wink:
[/quote]

I stand corrected.http://forums.catholic.com/images/icons/icon7.gif


#10

[quote=tkdnick]I found that to be the case with one of my LDS friends. I mentioned something about the apostasy and she said “that’s exactly what happened”. She went on to explain how there was this apostasy and Joseph Smith got the restored Gospel. She made these comments like every person with any common sense would know they are true. I just didn’t get that. It would have been a much more effective response if she had shown me how and when this apostasy happened.
[/quote]

The really strange thing is that the “apostate” Catholic Church defended the Faith taught by the Apostles against the heresies of the Judaizers, Kerinthians, Ebionites, Elchasaites, Mandeons, Gnostics, Subordinationists, Montanists, Adoptionists, Modalists, Manicheists, and the greatest heresy of all, Arianism, from it’s birth to A.D. 325. And she endured the fierce, cruel Roman persecutions and the loss of her leaders and many of her members to martyrdom. After that she battled Apollinarianism, Donatism, and a whole lot of other ‘isms.’ And she canonized the New Testament and formed the first Bible when she was nearly 400 years old.

Christ removed the “true church” from the earth, huh? Then who gave the Mormons their Bible? Why would they trust the Bible that came from an ‘apostate’ Church? If God removed His True Church, then there was no Christianity from shortly after the death of St. John, the last of the apostles, in about 100, to 1830 when Joseph Smith “restored” it. Bull-oney.

They have a contrived answer for everything. And no evidence.

JMJ Jay


#11

Amen and well said!!!

God Bless,
RS


#12

[quote=moira]So there is almost no way to refute their apostasy theory. My friend, a mormon for the last 10 yrs, said she felt a warm feeling (the burning in the bossom) and just knew that it was the right church. If all it takes is a warm fuzzy feeling, well…anything can make you feel that if you let it. When I had baby blues after childbirth I could cry and feel warm at a Hostess comercial.http://forums.catholic.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
[/quote]

So, next time she has this warm feeling, is she going to change religions?

Better to take two Tums…


#13

That verse says that the Church would go into Hades (netherworld) and teach the Gospel to the dead, and the gates of Hades would not “prevail” by preventing the Church from going in and preaching. You’re misinterpreting the scripture.

[quote=moira]I always thought that the mormons view of an apostasy had to be wrong because it makes Christ a liar. He said, Matt. 16:18, “And so I say to you, you are Pater, and upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.” If there were an apostasy, then satan won which makes Christ a liar.

To me this verse says it all.
[/quote]


#14

[quote=DarrickEvenson]Matt. 16:18, “And so I say to you, you are Pater, and upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.”

That verse says that the Church would go into Hades (netherworld) and teach the Gospel to the dead, and the gates of Hades would not “prevail” by preventing the Church from going in and preaching. You’re misinterpreting the scripture.
[/quote]

Funny, I don’t see anything in Matt 16:18 about the church preaching to the dead in the netherworld. Where exactly is it?
Paul


#15

[quote=moira]So there is almost no way to refute their apostasy theory. My friend, a mormon for the last 10 yrs, said she felt a warm feeling (the burning in the bossom) and just knew that it was the right church. If all it takes is a warm fuzzy feeling, well…anything can make you feel that if you let it. When I had baby blues after childbirth I could cry and feel warm at a Hostess comercial.http://forums.catholic.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
[/quote]

LOL!! I remember as a teenager wondering why I had the same warm(burning in the bosom?) “feeling” at a testimony meeting that I had at a Heart concert. It wasn’t until I left the church many years later that I fully realized that warm feelings are not necessarily from God.


#16

[quote=Katholikos]The really strange thing is that the “apostate” Catholic Church defended the Faith taught by the Apostles against the heresies of the Judaizers, Kerinthians, Ebionites, Elchasaites, Mandeons, Gnostics, Subordinationists, Montanists, Adoptionists, Modalists, Manicheists, and the greatest heresy of all, Arianism, from it’s birth to A.D. 325. And she endured the fierce, cruel Roman persecutions and the loss of her leaders and many of her members to martyrdom. After that she battled Apollinarianism, Donatism, and a whole lot of other ‘isms.’ And she canonized the New Testament and formed the first Bible when she was nearly 400 years old.

Christ removed the “true church” from the earth, huh? Then who gave the Mormons their Bible? Why would they trust the Bible that came from an ‘apostate’ Church? If God removed His True Church, then there was no Christianity from shortly after the death of St. John, the last of the apostles, in about 100, to 1830 when Joseph Smith “restored” it. Bull-oney.

They have a contrived answer for everything. And no evidence.

JMJ Jay
[/quote]

One of the best arguments I’ve seen. Thanks Jay.


#17

Have we had NO LDS reply to Rich’s original post? No LDS member in these forums can refute or give their take on what Rich placed before us?

Just wondering…why are there some threads regarding LDS theology that LDS members are very involved in, and some where no LDS appear?


#18

[quote=DarrickEvenson]That verse says that the Church would go into Hades (netherworld) and teach the Gospel to the dead, and the gates of Hades would not “prevail” by preventing the Church from going in and preaching. You’re misinterpreting the scripture.
[/quote]

Nani? :ehh:

Given that your interpretation is correct – that the Church (and not a temple) will go down into Hell to preach the gospel to the dead and be successful in entering into Hell to preach – that still shows a pretty cool Church, huh? In fact, such an interpretation lends itself even more to the Catholic interpretation that our God-made Church is totally INDESTRUCTIBLE, UNIVERSAL and ETERNAL. So your new interpretation does nothing to negate the Catholic one.

Are you arguing for the sake of arguing?

(PS Don’t worry, I know our Church is for Heaven and Heaven alone. We are the Kingdom of the High Country. Besides CS Lewis says the gates to Hell are locked – from the INSIDE!)


#19

It is the Mass that has brought Christianity into the here and now. This cannot be denied in any way, shape or form. If not for the Mass the Reformation would never have happened, Jesus would have been long forgotten and the Bible would never have been written. The Mormons would not exist as a Religion. The Mass takes place every two minutes on earth 364 days a year.

Who gave us the Mass? “Jesus”. And the best place to find this great Miracle given is in Johns gospel all of Chapter six. In 666 his disciples leave Him because they could not believe in the sign, the Spiritual food that he was to give His Church to nourish each and every soul who could find there way to His table. The Apostles were rewarded with this miracle at the last supper in order to proclaim Christ death and resurrection until His return. How else can anyone in any Christian sect or Cult even whisper the name of Jesus if not for the Most Holy Mass?

“The Eucharist is connected with the passion. If Jesus had not established the Eucharist we would have forgotten the crucifixion….To make sure that we do not forget, Jesus gave us the Eucharist as a memorial of His love.”
…………Mother Teresa

The Mass overflows to our protestant brothers and sisters. Even to cults that whisper the name of Jesus but do not yet know him as Lord and God of all.

ST. JUSTIN MARTYR

St. Justin Martyr was born a pagan but converted to Christianity after studying philosophy. He was a prolific writer and many Church scholars consider him the greatest apologist or defender of the faith from the 2nd century. He was beheaded with six of his companions some time between 163 and 167 A.D

“before the Great Apostasy as proclaimed by the Mormons.” He Wrote:….

“This food we call the Eucharist, of which no one is allowed to partake except one who believes that the things we teach are true, and has received the washing for forgiveness of sins and for rebirth, and who lives as Christ handed down to us. For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; but as Jesus Christ our Savior being incarnate by God’s Word took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food consecrated by the Word of prayer which comes from him, from which our flesh and blood are nourished by transformation, is the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus.”

" First Apology", Ch. 66, inter A.D. 148-155.

“God has therefore announced in advance that all the sacrifices offered in His name, which Jesus Christ offered, that is, in the Eucharist of the Bread and of the Chalice, which are offered by us Christians in every part of the world, are pleasing to Him.”


#20

rich12345,

CHOUBERIGU! ^o^

(old Japanese slang: “Super very good!”) :smiley:


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