Catholics say they gave us the Bible!


#1

Only One Gospel

Galations 1:6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

10 For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ.

Did The Catholic Church Give Us The Bible?

Catholics contend that the whole world is indebted to the Roman Catholic church for the existence of the Bible. This is another of their attempts to exalt the church as an authority in addition to the Bible.

Please notice the following from Catholic sources:

"If she had not scrutinized carefully the writings of her children, rejecting some and approving others as worthy of inclusion in the canon of the New Testament, there would be no New Testament today.

"If she had not declared the books composing the New Testament to be inspired word of God, we would not know it.

“The only authority which non-Catholics have for the inspiration of the Scriptures is the authority of the Catholic Church.” (The Faith of Millions, p. 145)

“It is only by the divine authority of the Catholic Church that Christians know that the scripture is the word of God, and what books certainly belong to the Bible.” (The Question Box, p. 46)

“It was the Catholic Church and no other which selected and listed the inspired books of both the Old Testament and the New Testament…If you can accept the Bible or any part of it as inspired Word of God, you can do so only because the Catholic Church says it is.” (The Bible is a Catholic Book, p. 4).

The Catholic writers quoted above state that one can accept the Bible as being inspired and as having authority only on the basis of the Catholic Church. In reality, the Bible is inspired and has authority, not because a church declared it so, but because God made it so. God delivered it by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and declared that it would abide forever. “All scripture is inspired of God…” (2 Tim. 3:16). “…Holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.” (2 Pet. 1:21). “Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.” (Matt. 24:35). “The grass withered, and the flower has fallen–but the word of the Lord endures forever.” (1 Pet. 1:24-25). The Catholics are wrong, therefore, in their assumption that the Bible is authoritative only because of the Catholic Church. The Bible does not owe its existence to the Catholic Church, but to the authority, power and providence of God.


#2

So how do I know which books belong in the Bible? How do I know our canon of scripture is correct? Because you tell me? Or because my parents tell me? Or other Christians? A Muslim told me a different book was God’s word. Why should I believe your word over his?

I believe the canon of scripture is correct because a Church council defined it. How do you know what books belong in the Bible?

Also, what did Christians refer to for authority before the Bible was put together? The Septuagint? Then how come your ‘Bible’ is missing some books from the Septuagint, like Tobit, or 1st and 2nd Maccabees?


#3

[quote=excatholic] The Bible does not owe its existence to the Catholic Church, but to the authority, power and providence of God.
[/quote]

And He (Glory to the Most Holy Name) exhibit His Authority, Power and Providence?


#4

Ex-Catholic,

Sometimes the things you say baffle me. Not because they strike me as saying “Behold! The Errors of your Faith!”, rather because your logic is simply backwards.

Did God drop the bible out of heaven into your hands? No? Hmmm.

Did God drop the bible into the hands of Pastor Joe down the Street?

Oh! I know! Martin Luther. That’s whose hands the bible dropped into. No? Not that either?

Tell me, Ex-Catholic. Have you gone through and read all the gospels that aren’t in your bible? No?

What scriptures is the bible talking about? Whose scriptures? Is the bible talking about the Gospel According to Mary Magdeline? No? Why? How do you know?

Simply because the Catholic Church put the new testament together and said “Here you go. These books are inspired”

But then, your protestant fore-fathers decided to do something naughty—they decided to do something God forbid in no unclear terms

Rev.22:18-19

They REMOVED books from the bible, losing their share in the tree of life.

Brother, I know you mean well, and are trying to lead us to salvation. We want the same for you. Come home.

-PioMagnus


#5

I recommend reading “The New Testament Canon, Its Making and Meaning” by Harry Y Gamble.

At the time he wrote it, Professor Gamble was Associate Professor of Religious Studies at the University of Virginia. He is a Protestant.

The foreword to this book was witten by Dan O. Via, Duke University Divinity School, also a Protestant.

Dr. Gamble does an excellent job of recounting how the New Testament came to be – and shows that it was clearly the work of the Catholic Church. In the process, he discusses sola scriptura, pointing out that the unifying and identifying criterion of acceptance into the canon was tradition – both traditional usage of a given document at Mass, and the tradition of its authorship and authenticity.

No serious student of the New Testament can deny that it is a product of the Catholic Church – which existed for about 350 years prior to the emergence of the New Testament.


#6

This appears to come from an article by David J. Riggs.

A Catholic apologist by the name of “Matt1618” debated Riggs on Sola Scriptura several years ago.


#7

[quote=excatholic] The Catholic writers quoted above state that one can accept the Bible as being inspired and as having authority only on the basis of the Catholic Church. In reality, the Bible is inspired and has authority, not because a church declared it so, but because God made it so. God delivered it by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and declared that it would abide forever. “All scripture is inspired of God…” (2 Tim. 3:16). “…Holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.” (2 Pet. 1:21). “Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.” (Matt. 24:35). “The grass withered, and the flower has fallen–but the word of the Lord endures forever.” (1 Pet. 1:24-25). The Catholics are wrong, therefore, in their assumption that the Bible is authoritative only because of the Catholic Church. The Bible does not owe its existence to the Catholic Church, but to the authority, power and providence of God.
[/quote]

Tim. is not talking about itself when it says that all scripture is inspired. Is there anywhere in the bible that says the gospel of Matthew, John, Luke, or Mark is inspired? No, you will not find a statement like that. You may find a statement about the old testament but you will not find one about the new testament. Just because all scripture is inspired, does that mean that Ignatius was inspired when he wrote to the Trallians or the Magnesians or the Ephesians? What exactly is scripture? Was Justins Apology inspired? Were Chrysostoms sermons inspired? Is Romeo and Juliet scripture? Is the Odyssey inspired scripture? How about the Koran?

all scripture is not exactly a good reference for your sola scriptura view. It does not define the canon, and I would like to see you define the Canon by reading the scriptures. Where does it say which books are inspired scripture?

The word of the Lord enduring forever is not a reference to scripture. The word of the Lord can endure through the word of mouth and through the Church, which it did for 1900 years since very few people could even read the bible.

Just because holy men spoke does not mean they wrote. In fact speaking has no reference to writing and can not even be related to writing.

God never declared that scripture would remain forever. What Christ did, was he said that the gates of Hell shall never prevail against his church, not the scriptures.

Philip says that you can not understand the scriptures unless you have the authority(Acts8). Paul says that the church is the pillar and the ground of Truth(1Tim3:15). Paul also says to follow the traditions, whether by epistle or by word of mouth(2Thes2;14). It also says that the apostles passed on the word by mouth(Acts15;27). It was the apostles who had a council in Jerusalem to declare that circumcision is unnecisary(Acts15).

It was the Catholic Church that canonized the scriptures in the fourth century at the councils of Rome, Carthage and Hippo. It was a Catholic saints Justin in about 130AD and Irenaeus in 170AD who affirmed that the LXX was authoritative rather than the Hebrew scriptures. It was the Catholic monks that made copies of the bible so that people could read it. It was a Catholic, Johan Geutenburg, who made the first copies of the bible with the printing press. It was the Catholic Church who exorted Augustine to even believe the bible because of the authority of the Church.


#8

[quote=excatholic]Only One Gospel

Galations 1:6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

10 For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ.

Did The Catholic Church Give Us The Bible?

Catholics contend that the whole world is indebted to the Roman Catholic church for the existence of the Bible. This is another of their attempts to exalt the church as an authority in addition to the Bible.

Please notice the following from Catholic sources:

"If she had not scrutinized carefully the writings of her children, rejecting some and approving others as worthy of inclusion in the canon of the New Testament, there would be no New Testament today.

"If she had not declared the books composing the New Testament to be inspired word of God, we would not know it.

“The only authority which non-Catholics have for the inspiration of the Scriptures is the authority of the Catholic Church.” (The Faith of Millions, p. 145)

“It is only by the divine authority of the Catholic Church that Christians know that the scripture is the word of God, and what books certainly belong to the Bible.” (The Question Box, p. 46)

“It was the Catholic Church and no other which selected and listed the inspired books of both the Old Testament and the New Testament…If you can accept the Bible or any part of it as inspired Word of God, you can do so only because the Catholic Church says it is.” (The Bible is a Catholic Book, p. 4).

The Catholic writers quoted above state that one can accept the Bible as being inspired and as having authority only on the basis of the Catholic Church. In reality, the Bible is inspired and has authority, not because a church declared it so, but because God made it so. God delivered it by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and declared that it would abide forever. “All scripture is inspired of God…” (2 Tim. 3:16). “…Holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.” (2 Pet. 1:21). “Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.” (Matt. 24:35). “The grass withered, and the flower has fallen–but the word of the Lord endures forever.” (1 Pet. 1:24-25). The Catholics are wrong, therefore, in their assumption that the Bible is authoritative only because of the Catholic Church. The Bible does not owe its existence to the Catholic Church, but to the authority, power and providence of God.
[/quote]

Is it just me, or that argument is just circular and flatly self-defeating? (not to mention highly ignorant of history) :rolleyes:


#9

[quote=Vincent]This appears to come from an article by David J. Riggs.
[/quote]

:rotfl: That is hilarious Vincent.

excatholic, I also recommend that you listen to the audio links on the left side of the link below.

kensmen.com/catholic/rock.html


#10

PioMagnus,

Pastor Jim is the infallable interpreter of the bible. The bible was given to King James by God. I thought everyone knew that.:rolleyes:

I love this here. Everyone should see this from James White.

bringyou.to/apolonio/truth.htm


#11

[quote=mrS4ntA]Is it just me, or that argument is just circular and flatly self-defeating? (not to mention highly ignorant of history) :rolleyes:
[/quote]

It’s amazing how few protestants actually do know the history of the Bible :frowning:


#12

The bible owes its inspiration to the Holy Spirit. On that all agree. The Catholic Church owes its authority and power to God. Jesus gave it the power to bind and loose. It used that power to define the Canon of the bible at a time when others were preaching something other than the Gospel preached by the Apostles and those sent out by them. The authority of the Catholic Church was needed then just as it is now. If not for the Church, then books like the DaCinci Code could be the gospel truth, and then where would we Christians be, Catholics and ex-Catholics alike?


#13

[quote=Anne]It’s amazing how few protestants actually do know the history of the Bible :frowning:
[/quote]

Well, if the King James Version was good enough for Jesus Christ, it’s good enough for me.http://forums.catholic.com/images/icons/icon12.gif


#14

[quote=excatholic]Only One Gospel

Galations 1:6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

.

[/quote]

Funny but I’ve always taken these verses to mean protestant faiths not the Catholic faith.


#15

[quote=heliumspark]So how do I know which books belong in the Bible? How do I know our canon of scripture is correct? Because you tell me? Or because my parents tell me? Or other Christians? A Muslim told me a different book was God’s word. Why should I believe your word over his?

I believe the canon of scripture is correct because a Church council defined it. How do you know what books belong in the Bible?

Also, what did Christians refer to for authority before the Bible was put together? The Septuagint? Then how come your ‘Bible’ is missing some books from the Septuagint, like Tobit, or 1st and 2nd Maccabees?
[/quote]

John14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. Don’t trust me trust the Lord and read his Word. If you read his Word and avail yourself to the Holy Spirit he will show you what is truth. Men will fail us every time. His Word will stand forever.


#16

[quote=excatholic]John14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. Don’t trust me trust the Lord and read his Word. If you read his Word and avail yourself to the Holy Spirit he will show you what is truth. Men will fail us every time. His Word will stand forever.
[/quote]

You did not answer the question though. How do you know what is scripture? Why is the gospel of John even scripture? Why isn’t the gospel of Mary Magdalen scripture? Or the gospel of Thomans? You claim that we should all listen to the comforter. That is great in theory, but there are thirty some thousand denominations of protestants which claim exactly that, yet they all believe differently and they all reject eachother. The bible means nothing without the Church.


#17

[quote=jimmy]You did not answer the question though. How do you know what is scripture? Why is the gospel of John even scripture? Why isn’t the gospel of Mary Magdalen scripture? Or the gospel of Thomans? You claim that we should all listen to the comforter. That is great in theory, but there are thirty some thousand denominations of protestants which claim exactly that, yet they all believe differently and they all reject eachother. The bible means nothing without the Church.
[/quote]

Very clearly, if one seeks to answer these questions sincerely, one comes to an inescapable conclusion – the New Testament was assembled and proclaimed by the Catholic Church, based on Catholic traditions.

The traditions of the Church, being the basis of the New Testament, must therefore be considered co-equal with the written word.


#18

[quote=moira]Funny but I’ve always taken these verses to mean protestant faiths not the Catholic faith.
[/quote]

The. Roman Catholic Church was legally recognized by the Roman Emperor Constantine, and, in 380 it became the official religion of the Roman Empire. My contention is synonymous with that of the history of the early church. The RCC makes the claim that the early church in Rome (prior to the 313 date) was called the Roman Catholic Church when in fact it was not. The Church in Rome was an extension of the Jerusalem church westward. When Constantine issued the Edict of Milan in 313C.E. Rome expressed toleration for the Christian church and eventually it became a state religion by the year 380. This state religion was not and is not the same as what the Jerusalem church taught. The RCC makes it a habit of venerating which would cause anything in history that ever happened in the Christian faith to be a Catholic event. The RCC effectively uses the spin that “catholic means universal” when we know it to mean the “Roman Catholic Church” hence RCC. Jesus was not a Catholic; he was and is a Jew. His disciples were not Catholic either, they were also Jewish. Paul was not Catholic either he was a Jew from the tribe of Benjamin. Are we starting to see a pattern here, could it be possible that the first Christians were not Catholic either? I would say it is good bet they were not seeing as the term Catholic was not even used until 110 C.E. Just because the RCC claims the first church was Catholic does not make it right or true.

2Tim4:1-5 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Priests can’t marry, when I was Catholic I could not eat meat on Fridays during lent. Do you know what the requirements for a Bishop are according to the bible?1tim3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Are your Bishops able to marry? I think not. What changed the Word of God or your church?


#19

Ex…you’re off again.

You are only right in so far that this statement recognizes that it is the promise that the gates of hell will not prevail against her that expresses the “authority, power and providence of God.” Which also tells us why the corrupted translations of so called reformers like Luther (who historically REMOVED 11 books from the canon on his own authority ) were condemned.

Since it was (inarguably) the Catholic Councils of Hippo (393 AD) & Carthage (397 AD) that finally confirmed which books were inspired. Explain to us , if you can how you know for sure what really is canon & what is not. Even Luther himself said that they owed the Bible to the Catholic Church. What possible answer can you give that proves otherwise. History will not support any answer that does not include the authorative confirmation of the canon by the Catholic Church. It’s not theology…it’s just simply history. Stop believing what you have been told & do your own research using ALL the historic sources…not just the Protestant ones that you keep believing.

You see those sources you quoted…read 'em…

Love-as always,


#20

This state religion was not and is not the same as what the Jerusalem church taught. The RCC makes it a habit of venerating which would cause anything in history that ever happened in the Christian faith to be a Catholic event. The RCC effectively uses the spin that “catholic means universal” when we know it to mean the “Roman Catholic Church” hence RCC. Jesus was not a Catholic; he was and is a Jew. His disciples were not Catholic either, they were also Jewish. Paul was not Catholic either he was a Jew from the tribe of Benjamin. Are we starting to see a pattern here, could it be possible that the first Christians were not Catholic either? I would say it is good bet they were not seeing as the term Catholic was not even used until 110 C.E. Just because the RCC claims the first church was Catholic does not make it right or true.

This is baloney…
Catholic is Greek for Universal- as usual you are wrong again buddy…

The disciples ceased being Jews in Acts of the Apostles, so that statement was inaccurate as well. witness the fact that they met on the first day of the week to celebrate the Eucharist, which according to both Jesus & St Paul is really the body & blood of the Lord (see 1st Corinthians 11:23-29). You haven’t even got a scriptural leg to stand on with this post buddy…it just isn’t true.

To be honest w/ you I sometimes think that some Prot sources are intentionally inaccurate & you seem to believe them all. I used to…never again.

C’mon home & quit this lame debate w/ the Holy Spirit…


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