CC vs the Bible


#1

Does what’s written in the CC weigh out the Bible? For a lack of better words? What i’m trying to ask is… doe the CC over rule the Bible? I guess thats what i’m trying to say, lost my thought.

or are they supposed to go hand and hand? what if they contradict one another? then what? Bible or CC?

Thanks in advance!

Apple Keynote tomorrow 9AM! (FYI)


#2

[quote=ReflectHim]Does what’s written in the CC weigh out the Bible? For a lack of better words? What i’m trying to ask is… doe the CC over rule the Bible? I guess thats what i’m trying to say, lost my thought.

or are they supposed to go hand and hand? what if they contradict one another? then what? Bible or CC?

Thanks in advance!

Apple Keynote tomorrow 9AM! (FYI)
[/quote]

They go hand-in-hand. Why, do you have an example in which the CCC and the Bible seem to contradict one another?


#3

They go hand in hand. One does not contradict the other. The bible could be thought of as a source material, while the CC more of an explanation to the correct interpretation. Also, the CC is made to govern the rules of the Church, congruent with Scripture.


#4

They go hand in hand in the same way that Paul and James go hand in hand. If something “seems” to be contradictatory between multiple books of the bible do you ask the question “which one is *over *the other”, “which one has priority”, or “which one is right”? NO.

The reason none of these texts can contradict each other (even if surface level appearances indicate contradiction) is because all scripture has the Holy Spirit as it’s primary author.

In the same way the Holy Spirit inspired Apostolic Tradition and continues to inspire the Catholic Church in it’s interpretation and pastoral implimentation of Holy Scripture and Apostolic Tradition.

Can the Holy Spirit contradict himself? Not possible.


#5

According to our Faith, the Bible and the teaching of the Catholic Church can not contradict each other. The problem you suggest, for Catholics, does not exist, as conflicts can not exist. Protestants accept the doctrine of sola scriptura. This doctrines teaches that the Scriptures alone serve as a doctrinal and moral authority for Christians. It denies that Christians can hold as fundamentals of Faith anything not found in Scripture. There are three major problems with this doctrine:
A) If Scripture is the only authority a Christian has, the Christian must rely upon fallible interpretations of men. This has led to great splintering in Protestant traditions. Look at all the different denominations. Dozens of interpretations are suggested, as there is no authority, outside of Scripture, to tell believers which interpretation is correct.
B) Sola scriptura teaches that the Bible is the only authority Christians have. There’s a problem. How can one accept that the Bible is the only authority on faith and morals God gave us, when the Bible itself never teaches this? If a Christian is not suppose to accept teachings not found in Scripture, then how can he or she be sure that Scripture is the only authority?
C) If the Bible is the only authority, then how can a Christian know for sure which books should be included in the Bible? The Bible is a collection of books, and no where does it list it’s “table of contents”, if you will. The early Church agreed largely upon the canon (list) of books that belong in the Bible, but they disagreed in some areas. Even today, the Catholic Church, Orthodox Churches, and Protestant Churches have slightly different contents in their Bibles.

So the Catholic Church (and the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches) rejects sola scriptura, and always has. We believe that Divine Revelation (the teachings God has revealed to His people through His Son and the Apostles 2000 years a go) is found in three places: Sacred Scripture (the Bible), Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium. These three ‘pillars of Truth’ can not contradict each other, for all three come from the Holy Spirit. Sacred Tradition refers to that body of teaching the Apostles passed down to the first bishops, but did not necessarily record in a book of Scripture. The Holy Spirit, the Church believes, guides the bishops, to ensure that these teachings are accurately passed down from generation to generation. The writings of the early Church Fathers verify many of these traditions not explicitly taught in Scripture. The Magisterium refers to the “teaching authority” of the Church. This is the pope and the bishops teaching and interpreting the Faith that has been handed down to us. The Holy Spirit guides the Magisterium, and will not let it fall into error. (Don’t get me wrong, individual bishops can be wrong on certain points of doctrine, and so can popes, but when a pope, or a Council of all bishops gathered together, solemnly defines a doctrine, the Spirit will not allow them to declare falsehood).

So basically, God has given us two bodies of Truth: Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. He has also given us the Church to faithfully interpret these two bodies for all ages. As St. Paul said, the Church is the “pillar and foundation of Truth” (1 Tim. 3:15).
I invite you to take a look at some of these articles/pages:
catholic.com/library/Scripture_and_Tradition.asp
catholic.com/library/What_Your_Authority.asp
scripturecatholic.com/scripture_alone.html
scripturecatholic.com/oral_tradition.html

God bless.

In Christ,

Tyler


#6

whoa. thats a lot


#7

ReflectHim:
Hi. Do you mean that in a good way or a bad way? I don’t see how I could properly explain our holy Faith in a sentence or two ;).
God bless.


#8

I’m still wondering just what he means by “CC”, as in is that short for Catholic Church, or a reference to the Catechism…

I usually ask this chicken or egg question:

Which came first? The church or the New Testament?


#9

Oops, I thought he meant the CCC. I guess it could be either going by his phrasing. Oh well.


#10

[quote=Ianjo99]Oops, I thought he meant the CCC. I guess it could be either going by his phrasing. Oh well.
[/quote]

The CCC, excuse me. And i’m NOT a he.


#11

[quote=ReflectHim]Does what’s written in the CC weigh out the Bible? For a lack of better words? What i’m trying to ask is… doe the CC over rule the Bible? I guess thats what i’m trying to say, lost my thought.

or are they supposed to go hand and hand? what if they contradict one another? then what? Bible or CC?

[/quote]

Surprise!! They don’t.


#12

[quote=ReflectHim]The CCC, excuse me. And i’m NOT a he.
[/quote]

Sorry

She.


#13

i said CC becuase i thought it was

The catholic catechism…(at least i thought that was the title)


#14

[quote=Della]They go hand-in-hand. Why, do you have an example in which the CCC and the Bible seem to contradict one another?

[/quote]

Hi
I can give one big contradiction between the Bible and the CCC,
If you are a Christian you must agree that Jesus is the only way to Heaven. According to the CCC this is not true.

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

I’ve know all the excuses Catholic’s use in trying to defend this part of the CCC, but they dont work with anyone who is honest with themselves.
In Him and Only Him.


#15

[quote=NonDenom]Hi
I can give one big contradiction between the Bible and the CCC,
If you are a Christian you must agree that Jesus is the only way to Heaven. According to the CCC this is not true.

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

I’ve know all the excuses Catholic’s use in trying to defend this part of the CCC, but they dont work with anyone who is honest with themselves.
In Him and Only Him.
[/quote]

I think they would probably fall under Invincible Ignorance. If they truly seek God with a sincere heart, why would they be denied God’s grace? It can hardly be considered their fault. I’m guessing you agree that they do worship the same God, right?

Remember that God is pretty merciful, alot more than we give Him credit for.


#16

[quote=NonDenom]Hi
I can give one big contradiction between the Bible and the CCC,
If you are a Christian you must agree that Jesus is the only way to Heaven. According to the CCC this is not true.

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

I’ve know all the excuses Catholic’s use in trying to defend this part of the CCC, but they dont work with anyone who is honest with themselves.
In Him and Only Him.
[/quote]

So you would presume to know the disposition of souls before God? The CCC leaves open the possibility that Muslims could be saved by ways known only to God. In their journey to God they would have to go through Christ…most likely in Purgatory…but really know one but God knows for sure. The Catholic Church provides all of the means of salvation that Christ gave to us on Earth. To presume that a soul who through no fault of its own is not made aware of those means is damned to Hell is arrogant and not what the Church teaches.


#17

[quote=Ianjo99]I think they would probably fall under Invincible Ignorance. If they truly seek God with a sincere heart, why would they be denied God’s grace? It can hardly be considered their fault. I’m guessing you agree that they do worship the same God, right?

Remember that God is pretty merciful, alot more than we give Him credit for.
[/quote]

Just my opinion, I myself believe they worship a different GOD. Not the GOD I find in my Bible. My GOD is part of a TRINITY named YHWH, not Allah.

I would think that GOD is as equally just as is merciful. I ponder why he would have his only begotten son, JESUS to come down to earth, suffer as greatly as he did, get crucified and die, when you could get to Heaven by being a Muslim and invincibly ignorant. To me, yes to me, that act alone describes that our GOD needs justice for sin. That to me describes that JESUS alone brings someone to the Father.

But, just my opinion, that I have formulated from the word of GOD. Who am I to have formulated “my” opinion with my own interpretation of the Bible? No one, just someone who strives to be a faithful servant of Jesus Christ and an obedient child to GOD.

:slight_smile:


#18

[quote=NiceFundamental]Just my opinion, I myself believe they worship a different GOD. Not the GOD I find in my Bible. My GOD is part of a TRINITY.

I would think that GOD is as equally just as is merciful. I ponder why he would have his only begotten son, JESUS to come down to earth, suffer as greatly as he did, get crucified and die, when you could get to Heaven by being a Muslim and invincibly ignorant. To me, yes to me, that act alone describes that our GOD needs justice for sin. That to me describes that JESUS alone brings someone to the Father.

But, just my opinion, that I have formulated from the word of GOD. Who am I to have formulated “my” opinion with my own interpretation of the Bible? No one, just someone who strives to be a faithful servant of Jesus Christ.

:slight_smile:
[/quote]

That’s exactly why we have the CC and the Magisterium, so that we do not make the mistake and fall prey to our own wrong Bible exegesis.
In fact, I fully admire the reconciliatory statement in the Catechism about how we, as christians should regard other faiths. With respect. God is the ultimate judge and although Jesus is the only way to salvation, the Holy Spirit can lead a sincere Moslim to Jesus over time. The timing is God’s. We are not in the position to say to our neighbor moslim “you shall not be saved”, because next week or next year, that person could be converted to christianity and saved.


#19

[quote=tomaskovarik]That’s exactly why we have the CC and the Magisterium, so that we do not make the mistake and fall prey to our own wrong Bible exegesis.
In fact, I fully admire the reconciliatory statement in the Catechism about how we, as christians should regard other faiths. With respect. God is the ultimate judge and although Jesus is the only way to salvation, the Holy Spirit can lead a sincere Moslim to Jesus over time. The timing is God’s. We are not in the position to say to our neighbor moslim “you shall not be saved”, because next week or next year, that person could be converted to christianity and saved.
[/quote]

Then he would no longer be a “Muslim”.


#20

[quote=NiceFundamental]Then he would no longer be a “Muslim”.
[/quote]

Exactly. Because like you correctly say, Jesus is the only way.
All people, atheists, moslims, buddhists etc. who are sincerely seeking the truth will be ultimately (albeit slowly) led by the Holy Spirit to Jesus. So, there are many roads to Jesus, there is only one road to salvation (it is Jesus).
And even if one dies as a (lets say) Moslim, he/she will still have a chance to personally respond to Jesus’ invitation. Jesus is the light and the truth
Tomas


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