CCC 841 - The Church's relationship with the Muslims


#1

This is sort of an offshoot of another thread that I couldn't reply to because it was just closed. I'm starting it partly because this topic has always been so interesting to me to discuss anyway, and partly because I just love when people try to put words in my mouth. :love:

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=656114&page=5

With all due respect I never claimed "they don't really mean this" and in fact went out of my way to state that nothing in that passage is incorrect. In much the same way people like to do with this part of the Catechism, you're reading stuff into what I said that isn't even there. Also, this isn't even a matter of doctrine, as someone else was already able to reply to you in the other thread. Next time you reply to something I write, please take the time to read it first.

Well with that out of the way, if anyone else wants to discuss this here's your chance. It's pretty interesting to me because I don't think there's any other part of the Cathechism that's twisted so frequently to try and say something completely different than what's actually written down. You can already see examples in the originating thread link above.


#2

[quote="exoflare, post:1, topic:277927"]
This is sort of an offshoot of another thread that I couldn't reply to because it was just closed. I'm starting it partly because this topic has always been so interesting to me to discuss anyway, and partly because I just love when people try to put words in my mouth. :love:

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=656114&page=5

With all due respect I never claimed "they don't really mean this" and in fact went out of my way to state that nothing in that passage is incorrect. In much the same way people like to do with this part of the Catechism, you're reading stuff into what I said that isn't even there. Also, this isn't even a matter of doctrine, as someone else was already able to reply to you in the other thread. Next time you reply to something I write, please take the time to read it first.

Well with that out of the way, if anyone else wants to discuss this here's your chance. It's pretty interesting to me because I don't think there's any other part of the Cathechism that's twisted so frequently to try and say something completely different than what's actually written down. You can already see examples in the originating thread link above.

[/quote]

I like Muslims who practice their faith without other agendas. Muslims pray daily, give alms, take care of their families, are intelligent, and love God above all things. We can learn a lot from them.


#3

I'm ok with sincere muslims. I do not like Islam which advocates violence. The Catechism speaks of good Muslims who sincerely try to seek God and may fall under the invincible ignorance. It speaks the truth. Remember, "to whom much is given, much is expected." They may never meet a true form of christianity and may only hear of a distorted version. So, I will leave it to God to judge these and any other people.


#4

[quote="aschaefer, post:2, topic:277927"]
I like Muslims who practice their faith without other agendas. Muslims pray daily, give alms, take care of their families, are intelligent, and love God above all things. We can learn a lot from them.

[/quote]

Those rituals you've mentioned are embedded agendas within the faith itself, to divert you from the true path of salvation.........


#5

Do you have a CCC on hand?

The topic is; PART ONE, Page One of the CCC "THE PROFESSION OF FAITH"
Article 9...."I Believe in the Holy Catholic Church" pg 197 You would have to start here then proceed to the following page's................

Paragraph III "The Church is One Holy Catholic and Apostolic!"

Title of sub section I

"THE CHURCH IS ONE" pg-214

Title of sub-section II

"THE CHURCH IS HOLY" pg-218

Title of this sub section III, is..............

"THE CHURCH IS CATHOLIC" 830-838 pg 220-222

This proceeds to............

"The Church and Non-Christians" ...........and its starts............

839 "Those who have NOT yet received the Gospel are related to the people of God in "various ways." pg 222

Then of course this elaborates from 839-845 and ends there pg 222-224.

Then this is picked up immediately with.............

"Outside the Church there in No Salvation"

Then of course this elaborates from 846-848.pg 224-225...........then to..

"Mission- a Requirment of the Churchs Catholicity" 849-856 pg 225-226..............then to..

Sub Section IV

"THE CHURCH IS APOSTOLIC" 857-862 pg 227-229

My point being that the CCC is a book of 800 pgs including the index, and just like the Bible it cannot be read Sola Scriptura. It must be understood in context/content. Otherwise it becomes ones own pretext.

So then the section in question here is "The Church and Non-Christians" and to clearly understand this you much clearly understand the pre and post sections in context with the entire CCC.

Just Saying, now that we are on the same page here, now with that said, we can begin to view the Catholic Churchs mission on Earth by Gods instructions...To Spead the Gospel throughout the World. Which means all people and souls on earth. Every single child born in this physical world is Gods. Since he is the Creator, the Artist of this Painting. Be it denied, accepted, misunderstood or clearly understood. The Truth remains intact. And the point in question in particular is.........

"The Church and Non-Christians"

839 "Those who have NOT yet received the Gospel are related to the people of God in "various ways." pg 222

Peace


#6

A good [as in follows the teachings of Islam] can include those who advocate violence. A good [as in follows the Truths within Islam and rejects the non-True teachings of Islam] can not. This is one of the dangers [seperating the Truth from non-Truth] that Muslims must face due the the errors within their faith. Same goes for all non-Catholic faiths. We Catholics have it “easier” because our faith does not have these non-Truths incorporated into our doctrines.


#7

“there’s nothing of any actual substance written there to begin with”

“It’s a lot of diplomatic sophistry”

Pray tell how I am putting words into your mouth. If I am misunderstanding what you are saying/implying then, as I tell my brother when he is explaining what he is working on in regards to his jeep, “explain it to me like I’m in kindergarten.”


#8

“The Church’s relationship with the Muslims.”

Notice, “Muslims” as people… not making any mention of Islam the religion itself.

The CCC also doesn’t specifically refer to Judaism or the various Protestant denominations. The section before 841 deals with the “Jewish People.” If we apply your above conclusion about Muslims/Islam, then we can only infer that the CCC is talking about the Hebrew ethnic group, not the Hebrew faith. Additionally, the reference to Muslims is itself a mention of Islam. Muslim is an Islamic concept, not a Catholic concept.

“The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims”

The plan of salvation includes everyone in general should they choose to follow, so while this sounds quite flattering on the surface, it’s not giving Muslims any higher regard than anyone else… much less the religion of Islam itself which still hasn’t been acknowledged here.

I disagree. The letter by BJPtG included at the front, the structure of the CCC as a whole and the sections within it, and the history of the CCC all demonstrate that the appearance of a subject and its order of appearance is not done haphazardly or without purpose. The section that 841 appears in deals with the Church and non-Christian faiths. They are listed in order of their understanding of the Truth. Judaism, then Islam, then all the others. Islam is between Judaism and all others because its understanding of the Truth [concept of God, importance/validity of Judaims and Christianity, and the Truths contained within some of Islam’s teachings] is less complete then Judaism’s but more so then all the others.

“these profess to hold the faith of Abraham”

They “profess” to but of course this doesn’t imply in any way that their profession is actually correct.

Agreed. Through the errors in their faith, Muslims think they are holding true to the “faith of Abraham.” This is only compounded due to the way in which Jewish and Christian teachings were incorporated into/used as a foundation for the Islamic faith itself.

“and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

As you’ve mentioned before the distinction that needs to be made is that while Muslims do technically worship the same God we do (since there’s only one God that can possibly be worshipped), the understanding Muslims have of God is a flawed one.

Here you are contradicting the Church and ignoring the Truths found within Islam concerning God. With your above statement, I could easily argue that pagan Romans “technically” worshipped God. Unlike the other non-Jewish non-Christian faiths, Islam has the general [due to the errors within Islam] concept of God correct. To say that every faith “technically” worships God because there is akin to saying that people who believe the moon is made of cheese are no different then people who believe the moon is made of rock.

It should go without saying that when people mention “the God of Islam” what they really mean to imply is the set of beliefs Islam holds to be true about God and what God has commanded. And this set of beliefs is clearly at odds with the Church, the truth, and in some cases even basic morality.

It should go without saying that any statment which begins with “it should go without saying” should be closey examined for assumptions, generalities, and implied “mind reading;” including this statement itself. You can not assume what people really mean, especially when said assumption is based on a concept that is defined differently depending on the populace using it. Order a “coke” in the south, and you’ll be asked what type. Order a “coke” up north and you’ll get a coke.


#9

Here you are contradicting the Church and ignoring the Truths found within Islam concerning God. With your above statement, I could easily argue that pagan Romans "technically" worshipped God. Unlike the other non-Jewish non-Christian faiths, Islam has the general [due to the errors within Islam] concept of God correct. To say that every faith "technically" worships God because there is **only one God is **akin to saying that people who believe the moon is made of cheese are no different then people who believe the moon is made of rock.

++++text in bold added in after I noticed my failure to include it in the original and the little edit button disappeared.++++


#10

[quote="Armyvet007, post:6, topic:277927"]
A good [as in follows the teachings of Islam] can include those who advocate violence. A good [as in follows the Truths within Islam and rejects the non-True teachings of Islam] can not. This is one of the dangers [seperating the Truth from non-Truth] that Muslims must face due the the errors within their faith. Same goes for all non-Catholic faiths. We Catholics have it "easier" because our faith does not have these non-Truths incorporated into our doctrines.

[/quote]

Sorry, I meant good by the Catholic standards. Not good from islam's standards. Sorry for the misunderstanding, should have definitely written that better.


#11

I agreed with much of your post, but how is it contradictory to say as the Poster’s comment to which you were replying with this particular paragraph said, that the Muslim understanding of God is flawed? The Muslims deny the Blessed Trinity and while they believe in One, eternal,immaterial,omnipotent Creator and God, they have much about the expectations and will of this God wrong. So it is very much per Catholic teaching to say that while they have some truths about God right, they also have some truths about him downright wrong. To say otherwise would imply that the Christian understanding of God is not essential.


#12

[quote="Marybeloved, post:11, topic:277927"]
I agreed with much of your post, but how is it contradictory to say as the Poster's comment to which you were replying with this particular paragraph said, that the Muslim understanding of God is flawed? The Muslims deny the Blessed Trinity and while they believe in One, eternal,immaterial,omnipotent Creator and God, they have much about the expectations and will of this God wrong. So it is very much per Catholic teaching to say that while they have some truths about God right, they also have some truths about him downright wrong. To say otherwise would imply that the Christian understanding of God is not essential.

[/quote]

The contradictory part isn't the part about the Islamic concept of God being flawed. The contradictory part is that they "technically" worship God because there is only one God. This ignores the fact that a)there are more then just 1 concept of God and b)the CCC specifically points out that Islam has the "right" concept "" due to the errors within that concept. If the value of God was 1 then the Catholic value for God would be 1, other Christian faiths, Judaism, and Islam would be 1 +/- .X. All the other faiths would have the value at >0 or 2<. To say they "worship" the right God "technically" because there is only God ignores these false concepts of God and ignores the fact [pointed out in the CCC] that Islam got the right concept [more or less due to the errors]. This is one of the reasons, primary reason in my opinion, that Islam is given specific mention. Their faith is less wrong then the others because they have a generally correct concept for God. This is probably clear as mud, but it's late here and I'm on little sleep [stupid meds]. If this doesn't make sense, just let me know and I'll try again tomorrow.

That all said, I fail to see how people can claim 841 means either a)the Church "oks" Islam as an equal path to God or b)that it was included as a means to pacify the PC/free love/make everyone happy crowd.


#13

[quote="Armyvet007, post:7, topic:277927"]
"there's nothing of any actual substance written there to begin with"

"It's a lot of diplomatic sophistry"

Pray tell how I am putting words into your mouth. If I am misunderstanding what you are saying/implying then, as I tell my brother when he is explaining what he is working on in regards to his jeep, "explain it to me like I'm in kindergarten."

[/quote]

While I stand by my saying it's a lot of diplomatic sophistry (this doesn't contradict being free of error), the bit about having no actual substance might have been a bit too strong. There are bits of substance to be found, but what I'm saying is they don't come together to formulate any meaningful point exclusive to Muslims/Islam. It's like they just knew they'd have to put in something about it so they decided to pick out the few things that could be made to sound good and ignore the rest.


#14

[quote="Armyvet007, post:8, topic:277927"]
"The Church's relationship with the Muslims."

Notice, "Muslims" as people.. not making any mention of Islam the religion itself.

The CCC also doesn't specifically refer to Judaism or the various Protestant denominations. The section before 841 deals with the "Jewish People." If we apply your above conclusion about Muslims/Islam, then we can only infer that the CCC is talking about the Hebrew ethnic group, not the Hebrew faith. Additionally, the reference to Muslims is itself a mention of Islam. Muslim is an Islamic concept, not a Catholic concept.

[/quote]

This part is a bit out of context when seen in isolation outside the original thread I posted it in, but basically this was directed towards people who were twisting the Catechism into somehow validating the doctrines of Islam. As far as I know nobody's trying to use the Catechism to defend Jewish or Protestant doctrine.

"The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims"

The plan of salvation includes everyone in general should they choose to follow, so while this sounds quite flattering on the surface, it's not giving Muslims any higher regard than anyone else.. much less the religion of Islam itself which still hasn't been acknowledged here.

I disagree. The letter by BJPtG included at the front, the structure of the CCC as a whole and the sections within it, and the history of the CCC all demonstrate that the appearance of a subject and its order of appearance is not done haphazardly or without purpose. The section that 841 appears in deals with the Church and non-Christian faiths. They are listed in order of their understanding of the Truth. Judaism, then Islam, then all the others. Islam is between Judaism and all others because its understanding of the Truth [concept of God, importance/validity of Judaims and Christianity, and the Truths contained within some of Islam's teachings] is less complete then Judaism's but more so then all the others.

I don't think that really goes against what I said at all...

"and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

As you've mentioned before the distinction that needs to be made is that while Muslims do technically worship the same God we do (since there's only one God that can possibly be worshipped), the understanding Muslims have of God is a flawed one.

Here you are contradicting the Church and ignoring the Truths found within Islam concerning God. With your above statement, I could easily argue that pagan Romans "technically" worshipped God. Unlike the other non-Jewish non-Christian faiths, Islam has the general [due to the errors within Islam] concept of God correct. To say that every faith "technically" worships God because there is akin to saying that people who believe the moon is made of cheese are no different then people who believe the moon is made of rock.

I'm not 100% on this but weren't the pagan Romans polythiests? If so then no they didn't even worship God at all. Nor did I say "every faith technically worships God." Anyway Islam does indeed hold more truth than this, but again it's kind of pointless here because it doesn't negate the fact that Islam is still a heresy or the fact that for some inexplicable reason the CCC writers chose not to mention that at all even though it was kind of important.

It should go without saying that when people mention "the God of Islam" what they really mean to imply is the set of beliefs Islam holds to be true about God and what God has commanded. And this set of beliefs is clearly at odds with the Church, the truth, and in some cases even basic morality.

It should go without saying that any statment which begins with "it should go without saying" should be closey examined for assumptions, generalities, and implied "mind reading;" including this statement itself. You can not assume what people really mean, especially when said assumption is based on a concept that is defined differently depending on the populace using it. Order a "coke" in the south, and you'll be asked what type. Order a "coke" up north and you'll get a coke.

That's really fascinating about Coke, but what exactly did I say here that was incorrect?


#15

[quote="Armyvet007, post:12, topic:277927"]
This is probably clear as mud, but it's late here and I'm on little sleep [stupid meds]. If this doesn't make sense, just let me know and I'll try again tomorrow.

[/quote]

Yeah I think my posts may not be very clear right now either. There's no meds involved :) but I'm just under a lot of stress due to things beyond my control and kind of having trouble forming coherent thoughts right now. So my apologies in advance if I seem especially thick-headed.


#16

[quote="Armyvet007, post:12, topic:277927"]
The contradictory part isn't the part about the Islamic concept of God being flawed. The contradictory part is that they "technically" worship God because there is only one God. This ignores the fact that a)there are more then just 1 concept of God and b)the CCC specifically points out that Islam has the "right" concept "" due to the errors within that concept. If the value of God was 1 then the Catholic value for God would be 1, other Christian faiths, Judaism, and Islam would be 1 +/- .X. All the other faiths would have the value at >0 or 2<. To say they "worship" the right God "technically" because there is only God ignores these false concepts of God and ignores the fact [pointed out in the CCC] that Islam got the right concept [more or less due to the errors]. This is one of the reasons, primary reason in my opinion, that Islam is given specific mention. Their faith is less wrong then the others because they have a generally correct concept for God. This is probably clear as mud, but it's late here and I'm on little sleep [stupid meds]. If this doesn't make sense, just let me know and I'll try again tomorrow.

That all said, I fail to see how people can claim 841 means either a)the Church "oks" Islam as an equal path to God or b)that it was included as a means to pacify the PC/free love/make everyone happy crowd.

[/quote]

I do agree that Islam is "more right" and closer to us than many other faiths out there and that the Church acknowledges this in the way she has chosen to present it in the CCC.


#17

What's the issue here? Our relationship with the Muslims is similar to the other faith that has rejected the Messiah - Judaism. Islam is one man's synthesis of Jewish and Christian beliefs and heresies with a bit of his own opinion mixed in. We respect Jews and Muslims for belonging to the Abrahamic Tradition, for believing in the One True God and for affirming part of the Truth of Revelation, but reject the errors of both faiths, as they are far inferior even to Christian heresies like Protestantism.


#18

[quote="Armyvet007, post:8, topic:277927"]
... much less the religion of Islam itself which still hasn't been acknowledged here.
...

[/quote]

:thumbsup: A point often overlooked.


#19

[quote="King_Lazy, post:17, topic:277927"]
What's the issue here? Our relationship with the Muslims is similar to the other faith that has rejected the Messiah - Judaism. Islam is one man's synthesis of Jewish and Christian beliefs and heresies with a bit of his own opinion mixed in. We respect Jews and Muslims for belonging to the Abrahamic Tradition, for believing in the One True God and for affirming part of the Truth of Revelation, but reject the errors of both faiths, as they are far inferior even to Christian heresies like Protestantism.

[/quote]

I agree. I don't know why people try to make such a big deal out of this all the time.

We believe in the One true God. Our relationship with them is that when we pray we all pray together to the same One True God.

I promised myself I would stay away because everytime I get involved it gets ugly, and I don't know why.

Our CCC teaches they we all have the faith of Abraham, that is what we have in common. I am told our CCC does not say that.

Our CCC teaches the Truth, Muslims, Jews, and Christians all consider Abraham as their Father so therefore are inheritors of the faith of Abraham.

Where we differ, and boy do we differ, is our teachings.

From my understanding Islam was founded in 622 A.D. Muhammed argued he was a restoration or purification of Judaism.

History proves this cannot be sustained.

Mohammad got angry when Christian Monks condidered him stupid and took off and began his own Religion.

He combined Tribal religions with their gods, with that of Christian and Jews. The majority of Islam in the first day came from Polytheistic Tribal religions.

But the point is there are 3 faiths who all share the faith of Abraham. Why? Simply we all 3 claim him as the Father of our faith. He is considered the father of 3 faiths. Muslim, Christian, and Jews. This is a true fact.

So now go back to the CCC. What does it state? Simply the truth that we all proclaim the faith of Abraham.

The Catholic Church rejects nothing of what is true and holy is these 3 Religions.


#20

[quote="Marybeloved, post:16, topic:277927"]
I do agree that Islam is "more right" and closer to us than many other faiths out there and that the Church acknowledges this in the way she has chosen to present it in the CCC.

[/quote]

Here is where it gets touchy. Because we both acknowledge the same Father, Abraham, and have the same God, we all pray to the same true God.

But as much as I hate to disagree with you, I do not see much that is right about Islam besides that.

Pope John Paul II said besides our faith our Father Abraham, and our prays to the One true God, we are worlds apart.

I know we have in common our fasting, prayers, also, but not much more. Unfortunalely Islam is so confusing and contradicts itself in many ways.


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