Ccc question 310

310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it? With infinite power God could always create something better. But with infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world “in a state of journeying” towards its ultimate perfection. In God’s plan this process of becoming involves the appearance of certain beings and the disappearance of others, the existence of the more perfect alongside the less perfect, both constructive and destructive forces of nature. With physical good there exists also physical evil as long as creation has not reached perfection.

questions
is this saying the original creation was not perfect? that god created a world with evil?

also the highlighted section does this speak of species dying out and others living or coming on the scene? evolution?

thanks.

Are you reading the catechism through, or just focusing on individual paragraphs? Earlier in the chapter you quote, we see the following in paragraph 299:

“Because creation comes forth from God’s goodness, it shares in that goodness - ‘And God saw that it was good. . . very good’ - for God willed creation as a gift addressed to man, an inheritance destined for and entrusted to him. On many occasions the Church has had to defend the goodness of creation, including that of the physical world.”

So, the answer to your question is that God’s original creation was good. Was it ‘perfect’? What do you mean by that? Would you call mankind ‘perfect’? Are you suggesting that creation cannot be ‘good’ unless it’s ‘perfect’?

that god created a world with evil?

Again, are you reading the catechism in context? In the very next paragraph (#311), we see:

“Angels and men, as intelligent and free creatures, have to journey toward their ultimate destinies by their free choice and preferential love. They can therefore go astray. Indeed, they have sinned. Thus has moral evil, incommensurably more harmful than physical evil, entered the world. God is in no way, directly or indirectly, the cause of moral evil. He permits it, however, because he respects the freedom of his creatures and, mysteriously, knows how to derive good from it.”

So, no – God did not create evil, although He permits it.

also the highlighted section does this speak of species dying out and others living or coming on the scene? evolution?

The Latin (from which the English version is translated) is ‘cum quorumdam entium apparitione disparitionem aliorum’. This word is ‘being’, and therefore, would seem to speak to individual creatures and not to species. Since individual beings do not evolve, I would reply that this paragraph is not discussing evolution.

No, I don’t think that’s really what it’s saying at all. In the beginning, God’s creation was perfect. He most certainly did not intentionally create anything to be evil. But, His Creation of the universe was just the beginning of His Plan. “***And God saw that it was good.***”

When God created the angels and mankind, He gave them much greater intelligence, which made them completely different from the rest of God’s creations (plants and animals). He gave them the power of reasonable thinking, as well as free will (the ability to make their own choices). He also gave mankind an immortal soul (spirit), which is what makes us, “in the image and likeness of God”, Who is pure Spirit. Ultimately, He wanted both angels and mankind to love Him, as much as He loved them. But, He also gave them the ability to choose whether they wanted to love Him, or not. He could never force them to love Him, because that wouldn’t really be love at all, would it?

I think you’re probably right on this part. That is exactly what it seems to be referring to, which makes perfect sense. Once the Plan was set in motion by God, it began to evolve as the causes and effects of all of the many variables, progressed during the passing of time. There are some truths found in the theory of evolution that do not conflict with our belief in God, as long as we remember that man was directly created by God, and did not evolve from any animal. I think evolution most likely happens within the species that God created. I don’t really think that one species can turn into a completely different one, but I think they can develop different characteristics, depending on their surrounding environment.

I have read whole ccc through so no need to ask again lol.

There is a big difference between good and perfect. What i meant by perfect was with no evil sin/death/disease etc. That is what was meant by question.

I can see what your saying and i agree but it says

“But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it? With infinite power God could always create something better.

I am referring to the original pre fall creation, was that perfect with no evil or not?

thanks for last part on evolution.

thank you for response. So gods original pre fall world was perfect with no sin death etc correct?

LOL… no problem! It just seemed odd, since the answers to your questions were found right in the context of CCC 310!

There is a big difference between good and perfect. What i meant by perfect was with no evil sin/death/disease etc. That is what was meant by question.

Yes, there is a big difference! That’s why I answered like I did – God called His creation ‘good’; but He didn’t call it ‘perfect’, now, did He? :wink:

I would think it’s difficult to call pre-fall creation ‘perfect’ if it did, in fact, fall. :shrug:

thanks for last part on evolution.

:thumbsup:

I think that is were we disagree on 310, i am asking a separate question. weather good or perfect, did gods original creation have evil sine death etc is how i should have worded to avoid confusion, so to anwser that you would say?

God’s did not create sin. whatever God created in the first instance of creation, He did not create it evil or sinful.

sin enters creation with the freely chosen rebellion of Lucifer and the rest of the fallen angels.

heaven is where reality is perfected and where sin is absent.

in this sense, God did create a perfect world, heaven. He also created the physical world without sin in it.

as to questions like, should God have created differently, or, why did God create knowing some of His creatures would eternally reject Him; I simply acknowledge my own limitations and trust that God in His infinite love and mercy knows what He is doing.

it may not work for everyone, but for me it really boils down to, who am I to object to what God wills? objecting to what God wills is what Lucifer did.

From the way you’re wording your question, the discussion could really go in two distinct directions, depending on whether we’re talking about ‘sin’ or ‘death’.

If the question is ‘sin’, then the answer is pretty straightforward: there was no sin in the world at creation, since the first sin on earth was the sin of Adam & Eve; however, since humans were created with free will, there was the potential for sin from the beginning. (We could get into an interesting discussion, perhaps, in talking about Satan and the fallen angels, since their disobedience could fall into that category, but that’s a discussion of a whole different tenor.)

If the question is ‘death’, then it seems that you’re asking about Romans 5:12 – “just as through one person sin entered the world, and through sin, death, and thus death came to all.” There are those who wish to use this verse to prove that there was absolutely no physical perishing possible before the fall of man; this, however, seems a mistaken conclusion. It would ask us to believe that carnivores were actually herbivores prior to the fall, or even that herbivores weren’t causing plant death through their eating habits (but instead, just ate fruits and berries, such that plants wouldn’t die).

This, I think, stems from an error in Scriptural interpretation. The entirety of Romans 5:12 is “Therefore, just as through one person sin entered the world, and through sin, death, and thus death came to all, inasmuch as all sinned” (emphasis mine). This final clause is critical, I think: the death that Paul is talking about is the death that afflicts those who sin. Animals don’t sin – and therefore, it would seem that Paul is talking about the death of the soul, not physical death. Therefore, it would not be contrary to Scripture to suggest that carnivores ate other animals at the dawn of creation prior to the fall of man. But, if by ‘death’ you mean ‘human spiritual death’, then the answer is that there was no such death prior to the sin of Adam and Eve.

Is that what you’re trying to get at?

You’re welcome.

I wasn’t there, so I really don’t know for sure if there was any kind of ‘death’ (such as that of plants or animals) in the world, but there was no semblance of sin or moral evil in the world, when God first created it. As “eddie too” said, the very first sin (an evil act committed against God) was the fall of Lucifer and his followers from Heaven. Then, the sin of Adam and Eve (the first evil act committed against God by mankind) happened after that, in the Garden of Eden.

I have to recant my first statement, where I said creation was ‘perfect’, because I think I was wrong about that. Actually, only God is perfect. So, saying that creation was perfect, would be putting creation on the same level as its Creator. As I also said in my previous post, when God created everything, He “saw that it was good”. He didn’t say that it was perfect.

No where does the Bible say God made it perfect. The Bible says God declared it very good, it doesn’t say He proclaimed it perfect. Though one might say, by way of comparison that He created it perfect and it became imperfect because of The Fall.

After The Fall, the state of journeying is the best state as we journey to the perfect state at the end of this age. (1 Corinthians 13:10King James Version (KJV) 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.)

Great answer! On another subject, I thought you might enjoy this:youtu.be/4B7ypA1fSwU

We should not pluck a verse or sentence out of context but we should always read things in context a.

Here is the complete section of the Catechism:
Providence and the scandal of evil. 309 If God the Father almighty, the Creator of the ordered and good world, cares for all his creatures, why does evil exist? To this question, as pressing as it is unavoidable and as painful as it is mysterious, no quick answer will suffice. Only Christian faith as a whole constitutes the answer to this question: the goodness of creation, the drama of sin and the patient love of God who comes to meet man by his covenants, the redemptive Incarnation of his Son, his gift of the Spirit, his gathering of the Church, the power of the sacraments and his call to a blessed life to which free creatures are invited to consent in advance, but from which, by a terrible mystery, they can also turn away in advance. There is not a single aspect of the Christian message that is not in part an answer to the question of evil.
310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it? With infinite power God could always create something better.174 But with infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world “in a state of journeying” towards its ultimate perfection. In God’s plan this process of becoming involves the appearance of certain beings and the disappearance of others, the existence of the more perfect alongside the less perfect, both constructive and destructive forces of nature. With physical good there exists also physical evil as long as creation has not reached perfection.175
311 Angels and men, as intelligent and free creatures, have to journey toward their ultimate destinies by their free choice and preferential love. They can therefore go astray. Indeed, they have sinned. Thus has moral evil, incommensurably more harmful than physical evil, entered the world. God is in no way, directly or indirectly, the cause of moral evil.176 He permits it, however, because he respects the freedom of his creatures and, mysteriously, knows how to derive good from it:

For almighty God. . ., because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself.177
312 In time we can discover that God in his almighty providence can bring a good from the consequences of an evil, even a moral evil, caused by his creatures: “It was not you”, said Joseph to his brothers, "who sent me here, but God. . . You meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive."178 From the greatest moral evil ever committed - the rejection and murder of God’s only Son, caused by the sins of all men - God, by his grace that “abounded all the more”,179 brought the greatest of goods: the glorification of Christ and our redemption. But for all that, evil never becomes a good.
313 "We know that in everything God works for good for those who love him."180 The constant witness of the saints confirms this truth:

St. Catherine of Siena said to “those who are scandalized and rebel against what happens to them”: "Everything comes from love, all is ordained for the salvation of man, God does nothing without this goal in mind."181 St. Thomas More, shortly before his martyrdom, consoled his daughter: "Nothing can come but that that God wills. And I make me very sure that whatsoever that be, seem it never so bad in sight, it shall indeed be the best."182
Dame Julian of Norwich: "Here I was taught by the grace of God that I should steadfastly keep me in the faith. . . and that at the same time I should take my stand on and earnestly believe in what our Lord shewed in this time - that ‘all manner [of] thing shall be well.’"183

314 We firmly believe that God is master of the world and of its history. But the ways of his providence are often unknown to us. Only at the end, when our partial knowledge ceases, when we see God “face to face”,184 will we fully know the ways by which - even through the dramas of evil and sin - God has guided his creation to that definitive sabbath rest185 for which he created heaven and earth.

Much clearer, don’t you think?

w000000000t!!! Yes!!! I loved it!! :smiley:

Thank you (for the compliment and the link)!

Wow, that brings back memories! The Ventures have always been a huge favorite of ours. Hubby used to have all of their albums, and used to play lots of their songs on his old 6-string electric guitar.

My ‘nickname’ is actually from an old dance group that I was in, way back when. It came from the actual satellite, but when the Ventures song came out, we used it for dance music one year. (yeah, I’m that old :p)

I am going to ask a more specific question and thanks for answered so far.

was there physical death before the fall of man and sin, with animals or any other imperfections and is there a dogma statement on this or is this what the ccc is saying i posted in op thanks.

Right – that’s what I thought you were getting at, and that’s what I addressed in my last post to you. :thumbsup:

and is there a dogma statement on this or is this what the ccc is saying i posted in op thanks.

To the best of my knowledge, there is no dogmatic statement on this question. I don’t recall the Early Church Fathers speaking on the subject (as such), but it’s possible that they wrote on the subject.

However, CCC #310 doesn’t seem to be making a statement about physical death (animal or otherwise) prior to the fall of man.

Physical death before the fall is not clear from scripture nor is it a subject of Church teaching.

thanks

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