[quote="CopticChristian, post:11, topic:258335"]
I have Oxfrord Groupers original writings, the Moral rearmament writings from which they sprang, you may want to research Frank Buchman, I have read all the original work and what led up to the 12 steps...
Did you know that the Oxford Groupers were intent on infliltrating the Churches and bringing back what they called 1st century Christianity..Protestant..
Did you know that they were very anti-Catholic, there are letters condeming Bill W because of that association..."popery" it was called...
Father Dowling wrote something in the book to suggest an endorsement. There is no impramatur and there is no knowing if the entire book was endorsed or just the steps...
Did you know that the first edition of the big book had stories of "recovered" and therefore cured and it was later edited to take those stories out so that people could forever be "in recovery" never to be cured.
Did you know that according to their own statistics their is less than a 10% success rate with this model.
The nonsense is in the notion that this is a disease for which there is no cure. As a physician this is nonsense. You may want to study the book written by Stanton Peele...
"The Diseasing of America" after you read and study how the notion of "disease" nonsense was introduced you might have a different perspective.
It matters not what the commencement was. The reality is what it is. I matters not to me how many priests, Nuns, Police, Fireman, angels...whatever are in it...it is what it is.
You have an opinion. I have an opinion. My opinion is based on fact and research not testimonials.
Be aware that what this discussion is about is Rationalism and Empiricism. They will never agree. I am a scientist in the pursuit of truth. This is not about Faith. This is about how anyone can understand something. In the field of science experience has value however it does not outweigh Reason in this regard. Science is not based on Faith it is based on Reason. I have to shift gears here and look at experience as ...OK show me the proof. Again this is not Faith.
The nonsense is the "disease model" I have a right to that belief and share it. You can reject it and I am not trying to convert just inform.
Try researching on the internet on any search engine you like the following.."incurable diseases"...you could go to a medical library and do the same, the results would be the same. This would be a start.
I am open to sharing my opposition which will not change. You can look at the information on this website. You may want to ask why there are books like "12 step horror stories"...
While you suggest that there are many denominations endorsing the 12 steps...I offered you the "Jesus Christ the bearer of the water of life"...you may want to read this and see what the Chruch says about the 12 steps..
I am just a source of informed information, not testimony.
If you listen to Catholic Answer Radio, you will hear and see that Catholic Answers endorses the program run by Stanton Peele, St. Gregories, based on CBT. The Catholic Church is not a denomination.