chaldean Catholics


#1

can anyone give me some more info on Chaldean Catholics?? I met sonme at a 100th annivesary of the Coventual Franciscans mass in Carey, OH where a mass was celebrated for the 100th anniversary of of the OFM Cov. coming to Carey at the Basilca and National Shrine of Our Lady of Consolation. The Celebrant Priest was Macro Tasco the General Minister of the OFM Con.


#2

The Chaldean Catholic Church developed from the Church of the East, the church that developed to the east of the Roman Empire and is associated with the apostle St. Thomas. It was based in Mesopotamia and spread to encompass much of Asia, even as far as Japan. However, the assaults of the Mongols and Timur reduced it to a shadow of itself. It first embraced communion with Rome in 1553, but it is a complicated history.

Is there anything specific that you wanted to know?


#3

[quote="yawsep1569, post:2, topic:300266"]
Is there anything specific that you wanted to know?

[/quote]

Yes, indeed. What specifically would you like to know?

FYI - an unofficial directory of Chaldean churches in the U.S. can be found here.

The official website of the Chaldean community in the U.S.: chaldean.org/


#4

[quote="ByzCathCantor, post:3, topic:300266"]
Yes, indeed. What specifically would you like to know?

FYI - an unofficial directory of Chaldean churches in the U.S. can be found here.

The official website of the Chaldean community in the U.S.: chaldean.org/

[/quote]

There's also the website of the Eparchy of St Peter in San Diego: kaldu.org. Lots of good stuff in there. :)


#5

Mum's a Chaldean Catholic.

Their Orthodox counterpart is the Nestorian assyrian church. And they are heavily latinised in certain areas in the diaspora (in Australia for example). However, i have herd that there is a revival of the Old Qurbana with curtains and all in the USA!


#6

Yes, mainly in the Eparchy of St Peter in San Diego. Have a look at the link I posted earlier. :slight_smile:


#7

As I thought, there is no Chaldean church for a very long way from us. I visited there and they had a curtain like the Syro Malabars, and men stood on one side and women the other. They had no icons at all.

I spoke to the deacon a while and he was very much against what he called the “greek church”. He also strongly denied the Virgin as Theotokos just mother of the human part of Jesus. Like Jesus is two seoperate people.

Even tho they deny they are Nestorians, they come across as very Nestorian to me.


#8

This is confusing. Was this a Chaldean or ACoE church??? :confused: If Chaldean, I’m very curious to know which one.

And even if this was an ACoE church, I really have a hard time believing that anyone there was spouting Nestorianism. The beliefs quoted above are really quite alien to the ACoE.


#9

[quote="shlomo3amrooh, post:5, topic:300266"]
Mum's a Chaldean Catholic.

Their Orthodox counterpart is the Nestorian assyrian church. And they are heavily latinised in certain areas in the diaspora (in Australia for example). However, i have herd that there is a revival of the Old Qurbana with curtains and all in the USA!

[/quote]

Metro Detroit has a substantial Chaldean population.

The Cathedral for the Eparchy of St. Thomas is here, and our local seminary (Sacred Heart) trains priests for both the Latin and Chaldean Churches.

At least one of the local Chaldean parishes offers the Old Qurbana.

I try and take my kids there, and to the local Byzantine parish a few times a year.


#10

[quote="Brendan, post:9, topic:300266"]
Metro Detroit has a substantial Chaldean population.

The Cathedral for the Eparchy of St. Thomas is here, and our local seminary (Sacred Heart) trains priests for both the Latin and Chaldean Churches.

At least one of the local Chaldean parishes offers the Old Qurbana.

I try and take my kids there, and to the local Byzantine parish a few times a year.

[/quote]

I'm curious as to what you mean by "Old Qurbana" in Detroit?


#11

I would agree. One of the Chaldean parishes here is name “Mother of God”

chaldean.org/CommunityPages/ChaldeanChurches/MotherofGodChurchMIUSA/tabid/113/Default.aspx


#12

[quote="malphono, post:10, topic:300266"]
I'm curious as to what you mean by "Old Qurbana" in Detroit?

[/quote]

I believe he means the unreformed Raza Qaddisha (Holy Mass), just as Maronites say Holy Qurbono. The Eparchy of Southfield still has not conformed to the Patriarchal reforms of the Chaldean Church enacted in 2007 due to the His Grace Mar Ibrahim Ibrahim. Most other Chaldean eparchies already have enacted the reforms.

I have not yet asked him what his reasons are because the reforms are simple delatinizations such as celebrating ad orientem, rearranging the liturgy to be nearly identical to the ACoE's form, and greater emphasis on Ramsha and Sapra (Vespers and Matins). Asking him about this has been on my mind for quite some time...

In my opinion, it could be due to the continuous waves of Chaldean immigrants from Iraq. One of the major reforms I didn't list is that there is one common modern Aramaic (Syriac) translation for all parishes. Chaldeans, Syriacs, and Assyrians have a different Syriac accent from each town and village so naturally there was a different translation from each town. The majority of Chaldeans in the metro-Detroit area are descended from Tel Keppe and Alqosh, which are the most similar accent-wise. The language in the Reformed Liturgy does sound more like standard Syriac, and could be an additional struggle for those who don't use it. Personally, I'd prefer if we stop using Arabic or incorrect Syriac in place of authentic Syriac during a Chaldean language liturgy.

I'll keep you guys updated if I ever meet and ask him anytime soon.

God Bless


#13

Well in Australia Mar Gibrail Bakos hasn’t taken up any of the 2007 reforms.


#14

[quote="malphono, post:8, topic:300266"]
This is confusing. Was this a Chaldean or ACoE church??? :confused: If Chaldean, I'm very curious to know which one.

And even if this was an ACoE church, I really have a hard time believing that anyone there was spouting Nestorianism. The beliefs quoted above are really quite alien to the ACoE.

[/quote]

Sorry, I was rereading and it was too late to edit. As I said any Chaldean churches are a long distance from me and this was a church of the East.

It was located in Midland TX, and later sold to a homosexual group beleive it or not.

Hope I made it clear.


#15

[quote="andrewstx, post:7, topic:300266"]
As I thought, there is no Chaldean church for a very long way from us. I visited there and they had a curtain like the Syro Malabars, and men stood on one side and women the other. They had no icons at all.

I spoke to the deacon a while and he was very much against what he called the "greek church". He also strongly denied the Virgin as Theotokos just mother of the human part of Jesus. Like Jesus is two seoperate people.

Even tho they deny they are Nestorians, they come across as very Nestorian to me.

[/quote]

The tradition of the Church of the East (Chaldean and Assyrian) is to have a curtain, functioning similarly to an iconostasis as being the uniting separation between the nave and the sanctuary. In Chaldean and ACoE parishes, men and women sit together, this is worldwide, so I think you might have gone to one of the exceptions to the rule. Lack of iconography was attributed towards the belief in no graven images, however it has just been maintained as tradition now, and Assyrians personally have some form of icons at home.

It is also interesting that you had such a strange experience with that deacon. The Assyrian Church in the middle east has very good ties with the Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholics. Even in my experience, Assyrians are very open and close with their Catholic and Orthodox counterparts. Assyrian Church of the East Christology is currently much more Chalcedonian now than it has ever been in its history. One remaining issue is that the title "Mother of God" is still misunderstood as her as a source of God's existence, so they prefer to say "Mother of Christ our God." It is a residual contradiction, as she is recognized as the Birthgiver of God, and not the source.

Don't hesitate to ask any more questions about the ACoE and Chaldean Church :)


#16

[quote="chaldobyzantine, post:12, topic:300266"]
I believe he means the unreformed Raza Qaddisha (Holy Mass), just as Maronites say Holy Qurbono. The Eparchy of Southfield still has not conformed to the Patriarchal reforms of the Chaldean Church enacted in 2007 due to the His Grace Mar Ibrahim Ibrahim. Most other Chaldean eparchies already have enacted the reforms.

I have not yet asked him what his reasons are because the reforms are simple delatinizations such as celebrating ad orientem, rearranging the liturgy to be nearly identical to the ACoE's form, and greater emphasis on Ramsha and Sapra (Vespers and Matins). Asking him about this has been on my mind for quite some time...

[/quote]

Ah, I get it. You're referring to post-conciliar Novus Ordo-inspired neo-latinized version. At first I thought perhaps a church was using the pre-conciliar version.

Speaking of the "old" version, do you know of a source for the Syriac text of the pre-conciliar Raza? I'd find it interesting to make my own leisurely comparison with the reformed text. I have the ACoE text somewhere, too.

[quote="chaldobyzantine, post:12, topic:300266"]
In my opinion, it could be due to the continuous waves of Chaldean immigrants from Iraq. One of the major reforms I didn't list is that there is one common modern Aramaic (Syriac) translation for all parishes. Chaldeans, Syriacs, and Assyrians have a different Syriac accent from each town and village so naturally there was a different translation from each town. The majority of Chaldeans in the metro-Detroit area are descended from Tel Keppe and Alqosh, which are the most similar accent-wise. The language in the Reformed Liturgy does sound more like standard Syriac, and could be an additional struggle for those who don't use it. Personally, I'd prefer if we stop using Arabic or incorrect Syriac in place of authentic Syriac during a Chaldean language liturgy.

[/quote]

Hmmm ... that suggests post-concilar "vernacular syndrome" which would sound about right when taken along with the versus populum table, etc. Those things go so well together, don't they? :rolleyes:

Anyway, from what I understand, the text itself of the "reformed Raza" is in "real" (authentic) Syriac whereas the readings, homily, and Lord's Prayer, (maybe a few other things as well) are in the standardized modern dialect. Since I can make my way through the Raza itself it without too much problem, that would seem to be true.

[quote="chaldobyzantine, post:12, topic:300266"]
I'll keep you guys updated if I ever meet and ask him anytime soon.

[/quote]

BTW, if you prefer, you can always PM. ;)


#17

[quote="chaldobyzantine, post:15, topic:300266"]
The tradition of the Church of the East (Chaldean and Assyrian) is to have a curtain, functioning similarly to an iconostasis as being the uniting separation between the nave and the sanctuary. In Chaldean and ACoE parishes, men and women sit together, this is worldwide, so I think you might have gone to one of the exceptions to the rule. Lack of iconography was attributed towards the belief in no graven images, however it has just been maintained as tradition now, and Assyrians personally have some form of icons at home.

It is also interesting that you had such a strange experience with that deacon. The Assyrian Church in the middle east has very good ties with the Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholics. Even in my experience, Assyrians are very open and close with their Catholic and Orthodox counterparts. Assyrian Church of the East Christology is currently much more Chalcedonian now than it has ever been in its history. One remaining issue is that the title "Mother of God" is still misunderstood as her as a source of God's existence, so they prefer to say "Mother of Christ our God." It is a residual contradiction, as she is recognized as the Birthgiver of God, and not the source.

Don't hesitate to ask any more questions about the ACoE and Chaldean Church :)

[/quote]

This all happened some time ago (late 80s), perhaps things were different then? It was before the 1st Gulf War.

I am sure language played a part in the misunderstanding, his English was just so-so and my (Iraqi?) non existent. But he became visibly animated and disurbed when he mentioned the "greek church" I am Russian and the Theotokos when he denied that Mary was only the mother of Jesus and not God. From other studies it seemed very Nestorian, and this was an Assyrian church not Chaldean Catholic. It all came across as very frightening in the deacons hostility and I never returned.

Shortly after there was a bust in the texas boom to bust oil industry and they left town for good.

I was neighbors in an apartment building with some of them, and they came across as odd to me. The women dressed like greek widows and never spoke. And the men wore shirts with the collars buttoned to the top but no ties.
The men did sit on the gospel side of the church and the women on the epistle side.

That was my only experience with the Assyrians, and I would not know until I got a computer of the existence of Chaldean Catholics for years.

As I understood in the Assyrian church the Patriarchate is hereditary, passing from uncle to nephew.


#18

[quote="andrewstx, post:17, topic:300266"]
As I understood in the Assyrian church the Patriarchate is hereditary, passing from uncle to nephew.

[/quote]

That was the case for some centuries, (I believe the hereditary lineage in the ACoE started in the 15th century), and it seems to have caused quite a bit of friction, even into the 20th century. It was, IIRC, one of the reasons behind the union of the Chaldeans with Rome. In any case, AFAIK the matter has finally been put to rest by the reigning Catholicos-Patriarch Mar Dinkha IV, and the hereditary lineage is no more.


#19

[quote="andrewstx, post:17, topic:300266"]
This all happened some time ago (late 80s), perhaps things were different then? It was before the 1st Gulf War.

I am sure language played a part in the misunderstanding, his English was just so-so and my (Iraqi?) non existent. But he became visibly animated and disurbed when he mentioned the "greek church" I am Russian and the Theotokos when he denied that Mary was only the mother of Jesus and not God. From other studies it seemed very Nestorian, and this was an Assyrian church not Chaldean Catholic. It all came across as very frightening in the deacons hostility and I never returned.

Shortly after there was a bust in the texas boom to bust oil industry and they left town for good.

I was neighbors in an apartment building with some of them, and they came across as odd to me. The women dressed like greek widows and never spoke. And the men wore shirts with the collars buttoned to the top but no ties.
The men did sit on the gospel side of the church and the women on the epistle side.

That was my only experience with the Assyrians, and I would not know until I got a computer of the existence of Chaldean Catholics for years.

As I understood in the Assyrian church the Patriarchate is hereditary, passing from uncle to nephew.

[/quote]

It might also be one of the Ancient Church of the East parishes. They are "traditionalists" in schism from the Assyrian Church of the East since the 1960's.


#20

[quote="Aramis, post:19, topic:300266"]
It might also be one of the Ancient Church of the East parishes. They are "traditionalists" in schism from the Assyrian Church of the East since the 1960's.

[/quote]

Yes, there are two Nestorian churches currently.

one where the patriarch is based in Iraq and the other is based in Chicago.


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