Changes of doctrines? by whom?


#1

This topic is discussed in another thread but transferred here.

Most, if not all, Bible Christians are saying that the Catholic Church changed and/ or created doctrines based on human traditions. But taking a closer look at these accusations, let’s examine what sort of doctrines was changed, to name a few, and by whom.

  1. The Eucharist-- Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity–this has been the belief of the earliest Christians since the beginning, aside of course from what the Apostles and Christ Himself have said. Protestant attacks on the Catholic Church often focus on the Eucharist. This demonstrates that opponents of the Church—mainly Evangelicals and Fundamentalists—recognize one of Catholicism’s core devotional doctrines. Luther and his followers are saying that it’s only a symbol.

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him” (John 6:53–56).

“Therefore whoever eats the bread and drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. . . . For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself” (1 Cor. 11:27, 29)(St. Paul).

Ignatius of Antioch, who had been a disciple of the apostle John and who wrote a letter to the Smyrnaeans about A.D. 110, said, referring to “those who hold heterodox opinions,” that “they abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in his goodness, raised up again” (6:2, 7:1).

In a fifth-century homily, Theodore of Mopsuestia seemed to be speaking to today’s Evangelicals and Fundamentalists: “When [Christ] gave the bread he did not say, ‘This is the *symbol of my body,’ but, ‘This is *my body.’ In the same way, when he gave the cup of his blood he did not say, ‘This is the *symbol *of my blood,’ but, ‘This is my blood,’ for he wanted us to look upon the [Eucharistic elements], after their reception of grace and the coming of the Holy Spirit, not according to their nature, but to receive them as they are, the body and blood of our Lord” (Catechetical Homilies 5:1).

continued…


#2
  1. Divorce—the Reformists used to agree that divorce is unscriptural. The early Church and the Fathers forbid this, and even in the Bible. The Catholic Church (also called Roman Catholic Church by the Reformists until today) still holds its ground and does not permit divorce, but almost every Protestants now say that it’s okay and allowed it in their communities to “accommodate” the present times. The cause of this action had greatly harmed families, causing trauma to so many children.

“A woman begins to be the wife of no later husband unless she has ceased to be the wife of a former one. She will cease to be the wife of a former one, however, if that husband should die, not if he commit fornication. A spouse, therefore, is lawfully dismissed for cause of fornication; but the bond of chastity remains. That is why a man is guilty of adultery if he marries a woman who has been dismissed even for this very reason of fornication” (Augustine).

“[T]he practice is observed by all of regarding as an adulteress a woman who marries a second time while her husband yet lives, and permission to do penance is not granted her until one of them is dead” (Pope Innocent I, *Letters *2:13:15 [A.D. 408]).

  1. Abortion-- even in the early Church teaches that this is a grave sin and evil.

“The second commandment of the teaching: You shall not murder. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not seduce boys. You shall not commit fornication. You shall not steal. You shall not practice magic. You shall not use potions. You shall not procure [an] abortion, nor destroy a newborn child” (*Didache *2:1–2 [A.D. 70]).

“Thou shalt not use magic. Thou shalt not use witchcraft; for he says, ‘You shall not suffer a witch to live’ [Ex. 22:18]. Thou shall not slay thy child by causing abortion, nor kill that which is begotten. . . . *f it be slain, [it] shall be avenged, as being unjustly destroyed” (*Apostolic Constitutions *7:3 [A.D. 400]).

Tertullian:

“[The doctors who performed abortions] all knew well enough that a living being had been conceived, and [they] pitied this most luckless infant state, which had first to be put to death, to escape being tortured alive” (*The Soul *25 [A.D. 210]).
“Now we allow that life begins with conception because we contend that the soul also begins from conception; life taking its commencement at the same moment and place that the soul does”
“The law of Moses, indeed, punishes with due penalties the man who shall cause abortion [Ex. 21:22–24]”.

continued…*


#3
  1. Contraception–Every church in Christendom condemned contraception until 1930, when, at its decennial Lambeth Conference, Anglicanism gave permission for the use of contraception in a few cases. Soon all Protestant denominations had adopted the secularist position on contraception. Today not one stands with the Catholic Church to maintain the ancient Christian faith on this issue.

“[Christian women with male concubines], on account of their prominent ancestry and great property, the so-called faithful want no children from slaves or lowborn commoners, [so] they use drugs of sterility or bind themselves tightly in order to expel a fetus which has already been engendered” (Refutation of All Heresies 9:12 [A.D. 225]).

“*f anyone in sound health has castrated himself, it behooves that such a one, if enrolled among the clergy, should cease [from his ministry], and that from henceforth no such person should be promoted. But, as it is evident that this is said of those who willfully do the thing and presume to castrate themselves, so if any have been made eunuchs by barbarians, or by their masters, and should otherwise be found worthy, such men this canon admits to the clergy” (Canon 1 [A.D. 325])(Council of Nicaea I).

“But I wonder why he [the heretic Jovinianus] set Judah and Tamar before us for an example, unless perchance even harlots give him pleasure; or Onan, who was slain because he grudged his brother seed. Does he imagine that we approve of any sexual intercourse except for the procreation of children?” (Against Jovinian 1:19 [A.D. 393]).

“You may see a number of women who are widows before they are wives. Others, indeed, will drink sterility and murder a man not yet born, [and some commit abortion]” (*Letters *22:13 [A.D. 396])(Jerome).

Any comments…

Pio*


#4

Divorce is an issue but I must admit that it seems to me annulments are handed out like candy these days. So, to say the Catholic church doesn’t allow divorce because it desguises it as annulment is disingenious. In other words I think we’re kidding ourselves.


#5

Divorce is an issue but I must admit that it seems to me annulments are handed out like candy these days. So, to say the Catholic church doesn’t allow divorce because it desguises it as annulment is disingenious. In other words I think we’re kidding ourselves.

Let me clarify this issue. Annulment is not similar to divorce. We are not kidding ourselves. When a marriage is annuled in the Catholic Church, it means that the facts have shown that there was *no valid marriage ever existed *after the investigation is concluded. Whereas, when a marriage is valid, it cannot be annuled (and neither can be divorced).

Hope this clarifies,

Pio


#6

One more thing, it is my observation that the reason there are so many annuled marriages in the Catholic Church is because there are so many people getting married and remarried in different churches (such as the Protestants). When the Catholic Church investigates a marriage in the Church filing for annulment, it mostly finds out that the other party was already previously married and certainly NO VALID MARRIAGE CAN EXIST IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. It simply means, we cannot hide facts from God, even if we lie just to get married in the Catholic Church.

These whole mess is the product of divorce and remarrying in so many Protestant churches, and even in the civil marriages.

Pio


#7

[quote=hlgomez]Let me clarify this issue. Annulment is not similar to divorce. We are not kidding ourselves. When a marriage is annuled in the Catholic Church, it means that the facts have shown that there was *no valid marriage ever existed *after the investigation is concluded. Whereas, when a marriage is valid, it cannot be annuled (and neither can be divorced).

Hope this clarifies,

Pio
[/quote]

Maybe I’m a little ignorant on the subject but I know of NO ONE that has asked for an annulment and has been denied an annulment. I know of approximately 14 people specifically that have requested one and received one. It just seems unlikely that none of them had valid marriages.


#8

310 Prayers for the dead were introduced
320 The lighting of candles
375 The worship of saints, about 365
394 The Mass was adopted
432 The worship of Mary began to develop
500 Priests began to assume distinctive robes
593 The doctrine of purgatory was introduced
600 Worship in Latin was mandated (since repealed)
606 Claims to Papal Supremacy took root
607 Boniface III made first Pope
650 Feasts in honor of the Virgin Mary began
709 Kissing the Pope’s foot
786 Worshipping images and relics
850 Use of “holy water” begun
995 Canonization of dead saints
998 Fasting on Fridays and during Lent
1003 Feasts for the dead were introduced
1074 Celibacy of the priesthood
1076 The dogma of Papal infallibility was announced
1090 Prayer beads
1140 The doctrine that there are seven sacraments was introduced
1184 The Inquisition
1190 Sale of Indulgences
1200 The wafer was substituted for the loaf
1215 Transubstantiation (A change of anything into something essentially different. The conversion of the substance of the Eucharistic elements into that of Christ’s body and blood; a doctrine of the Greek and Roman churches.)
1215 Confession was instituted
1220 Adoration of the Wafer (Host) (the worshipping of a piece of bread that one has become convinced is the Lord Jesus Christ)
1229 Bible forbidden to laymen
1316 The Ave Maria was introduced
1414 Cup forbidden to people at communion
1439 Doctrine of purgatory officially decreed
1439 Doctrine of the Seven Sacraments affirmed
1508 The Ave Maria approved
1534 Jesuit Order founded
1545 Tradition granted equal authority with the Bible
1546 The Apocrypha was received into the Cannon
1854 Immaculate Conception of Mary
1864 Syllabus of Errors proclaimed. The doctrine of the temporal power of the Pope proclaimed
1870 INFALLIBILITY OF THE POPE DECLARED
1950 Assumption of the Virgin Mary (the belief that the Virgin Mary ascended bodily into heaven without dying). The personal corporeal presence of the Virgin in heaven.
1965 Mary proclaimed "Mother of the Church"
1966 Pope Paul IV proclaimed an end to the traditional obligation that Catholics abstain from eating meats on Fridays.
He abolished the index of forbidden books. He demoted a whole host of saints who had been canonized, revered, and prayed to by the church previously.
A 138-page papal document (officially referred to as an “apostolic exhortation” was issued. Pope John Paul II in December dismissed the “widespread idea that one can obtain
forgiveness directly from God.” 1 Jn 1:9 clearly states, IF WE CONFESS OUR SINS, HE IS FAITHFUL AND JUST TO FORGIVE US OUR SINS, AND TO CLEANSE US FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.

You missed all of these changes, additions, deletions…by…the catholic church


#9

[quote=Gator]You missed all of these changes, additions, deletions…by…the catholic church
[/quote]

Gator, where pray tell did you come up with this nonsense?


#10

well… since gator is going to drop his troll bomb here I will post my response to it here as well.

First of all by dropping this long list of claims with only dates attached and then stating that you will not view Catholic responses as controverting them you are creating and artificially tight question.

Secondly by making ANY statement (much less a whole list of them) and then saying “prove this isn’t true” you are creating a situation where anyone who disagrees with you must argue the negative. Which is notoriously difficult. (Prove green frogs don’t turn purple at midnight and fly about town on airborne lily pads)

Third by just dropping in a list which you grabbed off a website and then berating us who rightly claim it non-sense as being too lazy to defend our faith you are really showing your true colors. IF you had any sort of source documentation or were actually questioning any one or two of these items then it would be worth while to address them.

As it is you have not shown that you are actually interested in learning as you would not consider any source that is pro-Catholic (which presumably is anyone who would disagree with you) because they would be biased, yet you accept the bias of the above list without a blink. You are the one dismissing the information of Catholics without even learning what it is.

You want other people to fight a battle that you create on an unleveled field and then presume to declare victory when no one is absurd enough to tilt at your windmills.

-D


#11

Pick a point… any point Gator… show where the Church Doctrinally taught one thing then CHANGED the dogma and taught something else. Show source information and tell where you got it. Do not dismiss Catholic responses out of hat but be open to understanding all angles of the issue.

-D


#12

[quote=jmacclure]Gator, where pray tell did you come up with this nonsense?
[/quote]

It’s a common list put out by those claiming how the Church changes things. Mainly we see this on Fundamintalist sites.

Kotton :rolleyes:


#13

All of which can be THOROUGHLY refuted by actual historical evidence. For example, purgatory is the most obvious fabricated date on that list. Strong evidence in support of prayers for the dead are known to exist in the catacombs under Rome dated to the first four centuries after Christ. Prayers to the dead, in the Catholic sense and as they are seen historically, are nonsensical without an understanding of a place like purgatory.

For some help in refuting such dates … go here.

The list is incomplete but the links to external references can help you to fill in details where mine are missing.


#14

The chart cited above includes the following

Christ fully present in Eucharist 110AD St. Ignatius of Antioch Letter to the Smyrnaeans, 7,1 +]
Sacrifice of the Mass 97AD St. Clement of Rome Letter to the Corinthians 44,1 +]
Baptism (pouring) 140AD Didache 7 +]
Baptism (Trinitarian) 140AD Didache 7 +]
Baptism (regenerative) 155AD St. Justin Martyr First Apology, 61 +]
Infant Baptism 189AD St. Irenaeus Against Heresies 2,22,4 +]
Confession of sins to a priest 244AD Origen Homilies on Leviticus 2,4 +]
Penance 97AD St. Clement of Rome Letter to the Corinthians, 57,1 +]
Indulgences 250AD St. Cyprian of Carthage Epistle XIII +]
Anointing of the sick (Extreme Unction) 244AD Origen Homilies on Leviticus 2,4 +]
Sacrament of Marraige 203AD Tertullian Ad Uxorem II, VII, Ad Uxorem II, VIII +]
Sacrament of Confirmation 203AD Tertullian On Baptism VIII +]
Invocation of Saints 80AD Hermas The Shepherd 3:5:4 +]
Veneration of Relics 156AD The Martyrdom of St. Polycarp XVIII +]
Purgatory / Prayers for the dead 180AD The Acts of Paul and Thecla +]
Mary (New Eve) 155AD St. Justin Martyr Dialogue with Trypho, 100:5 +]
Mary (perpetual virginity) 120AD The Protoevangelium of James 4 +]
Mary (Assumption) 377AD St. Epiphanius Panarion 77,11 (theorized) (source)
Mary (sinless) d. 407AD St. John Chrysostom Commentary on Luke, 2,17 / Commentary on Psalms 118, 22,30 (source)
Mary (Theotokos) 230AD Origen Homily 1 on Matthew 5 (source)
Authority of the Church of Rome 97AD St. Clement of Rome Letter to the Corinthians, 1,1; 59,1 +]
Tradition (received) 140AD Didache 4:13 +]
Apostolic succession 189AD St. Irenaeus Against Heresies 3,3,4; 4,33,8 +]
Justification (works) 97AD St. Clement of Rome Letter to the Corinthians 30:3, 31:2, 32:3-4, 33:1-2,7, 34:1-3 +]
Sign of the Cross 211AD Tertullian The Chaplet 3 +]
Constantine legalizes Christianity 313AD Edict of Milan - Eusebius of Caesarea Church History Book X, 5 +]
Council of Nicea 325AD Council of Nicea (source)
Old Testament Canon 382AD Council of Rome (source)
New Testament (first listed) 367AD Athanasius Letter XXXIX, 5 +]
New Testament Canon 397AD Council of Carthage +]
Trinty 181AD Theophilus of Antioch To Autolycus 2:15

If you want just a list :slight_smile:


#15

OOOPS, GATOR, YOU’RE HERE AGAIN??? Don’t be cutting and pasting your unsupported bias against the Church and change the real issue being written on this thread.
It seems to me that you are just here to sow your futile arguments.

Read history in a better perspective, not based on hearsay!

Pio


#16

This one is my favorite:

320 The lighting of candles

Everybody knows that prior to AD 320, Christians worshipped in the dark. You wouldn’t believe how many people stubbed their toes while running up for the “altar call.”:whacky:

Mark Shea posted the following list of “protestant inventions” on his blog a while back. I found it rather humorous.

90: Sunday worship promulgated by Didache
180: God first declared as a “Trinity” of 3 persons by Theophilus
325: Jesus declared to be of “same substance” as God the Father at Nicea
381: Prayer to the Holy Spirit authorized by Constantinople
397: Book of Revelation, till now dubious, now proclaimed to be "Scripture"
403: Worship of Mary first denounced as heretical by Epiphanius
418: Salvation apart from Jesus declared heretical by Pope Zosimus
431: Ephesus declares Mary’s human Son to be God himself
525: Calendar for Easter Sunday instituted
950: Invention of Bible in English
1215: Declaration that God created the world "out of nothing"
1455: Scheme for printing the Bible invented by Gutenberg
1760: Singing of “Amazing Grace” instituted by John Newton
1825: Altar calls instituted by Charles Finney
1863: US Government enforces Thanksgiving to God as official state holiday
1929: Wednesday night Bible study
1951: Preachers begin to dress in polyester suits
1959: Televangelism instituted by Pat Robertson
1969: “Accepting Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior” popularized
1970: Overhead projectors used in worship service
1978: Abortion declared to be a grave sin by Evangelicals and Fundamentalists
1991: “Promise Keepers” founded on pattern of neo-pagan "Men’s groups"
1998: Sale and commercialization of WWJD bracelets

:rotfl:


#17

Let me point to a couple of Brother Gators list.

Cup denied to faithful. Do you even know why? Because there was a real problem with a heresy growing in the CHurch. You cannot have part of Jesus, it is all or none, but people began to think that unless you recieve in both species, you did not get all of Jesus. Now that that heresy is more or less dead, the faithful can again be given both species.

Formation of Jesuits. This is funny. It is like saying that we cannot be a nation founded under God because men felt the urge to found this nation but God did not hand down a deed to it. Tell you what, I’ll accept that the CHurch had no right to recognize religious orders if you gladly accept that Americans have no right to accept God.


#18

Let me also say that prayer beads date to times before Christ and are found in Asia as well as the middle east. Paul IV did not end the meatless Fridays, the Communion of Saints is a Jewish idea, and Boniface III cannot be considered the first pope (after all, what were the other two Bonifaces?)


#19

Boniface III cannot be considered the first pope (after all, what were the other two Bonifaces?)

are you serious about his? or you just heard from somebody propagating this hearsay. The Catholic Church never say that Bonafice is the first pope. It’s St. Peter! Popes sometimes adopt names of their predecessors, but adds suffixes such as I, II, III, IV, etc. to retain their identity.

Do your homework properly.

Pio


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