Charismatic Mass


#1

Hey, can you guys give me your opinion on this scenario?

I go to mass in a community that’s largely charismatic. During the Great Amen, the musicians often go into “extended praise;” i.e. for a minute they and the rest of the congregation (and generally the priest as well) will speak in tongues, praise out loud, etc. Then they repeat the Amen again.

I’m uncomfortable with this and suspect that it’s not allowed.


#2

I don’t think there an anything intrinsically wrong with it, but it would make me feel uncomfortable too, and I would attend mass at a different church.


#3

I guess mainly I’m just concerned that they’re adding stuff to the mass, and I’ve always been told that that’s wrong. Unfortunately, going to another mass isn’t really an option for me- I don’t have a car and I can walk to this one.


#4

This is interesting, a few years back we had some Charismatics in our parish , they may still be there, one of them asked me what I thought of the Charismatic movement in the Catholic Church, I told him I would rather not think about it , that ended the discussion. It seems to me that this is an attempt by some Catholics to show our Prostentant brothers and sisters that we are just like them and that we can have our geetars and drums and make music like the rest of them. Oh well this is just how I feel about the Charismatic movement.


#5

[quote=TeAmo]Hey, can you guys give me your opinion on this scenario?

I go to mass in a community that’s largely charismatic. During the Great Amen, the musicians often go into “extended praise;” i.e. for a minute they and the rest of the congregation (and generally the priest as well) will speak in tongues, praise out loud, etc. Then they repeat the Amen again.

I’m uncomfortable with this and suspect that it’s not allowed.
[/quote]

TeAmo,

The Norm: I don’t think it’s allowed.

However, check and see whether they have diocesan approval to make that adaptation. My parish has the Bishop’s permission to have an “extended praise” just like yours, only it’s after the Gloria. After the time of extended praise, we do the ending of the Gloria again.


#6

I go to a univeristy that is overwhelmingly Charismatic, personaly I believe that the Charismatics are wrong. I just want to know, are they there for exercise and entertainment, or are they there for the real purpose ?


#7

I know that my hermanito el gusano :wave: won’t like this but here goes. Just my opinion mind you, but the entire Catholic charismatic movement is very recent, past forty years or so and came about apparently when some Catholics feeling perhaps that the Protestants had one up on us, requested baptism of the Holy Spirit from a protestant minister, I don’t remember if he was Episcopalian or Presbyterian, Well, the baptisms apparently worked and the movement was born. Charismatics claim that they are faithfully echoing the primitive church and that the Holy Spirit, long neglected and apparently maligned in mainstream Catholicism was once again showering his gifts among the faithful.

Whether or not He is actually doing that is, I suspect open to debate, What I think has really happened is this.

A group of disgruntled, forward thinking Catholics, bored to death by the latin prayers and probably badly distracted by clacking rosary beads, this is the 60’s remember, saw a really emotional faith filled pentecostal service, they can be very emotional you know, and felt that all the bells and whistles would help a moribound church locked in rigid ritualism and dogma. They neglected the fact that all the bells and whistles, speaking in tongues, prophesyzing, testifying, and other antics common to pentecostal gatherings are there primarily to cover up the fact that they have nothing of any real value to offer anyone except an intense emotional experience. In fact the whole faith filled pentecostal movement itself is very recent, past 100 years or so.

And so today, the charismatics are still among us, even though by their own figures, the movement is no longer growing as it once was.

I hope and pray that they can find whatever it is that they are seeking that the mainstream church apparently doesn’t have.

And hermanito gusano, if you read this, as you once told me I am still probably uncircumsized in ears and heart :thumbsup:


#8

I believe that this is a liturgical abuse.

If it does not appear in the GIRM or in the Missal proper then it is an abuse to add it.

The Missal contains all the prayers and the GIRM contains all the instructions.

The Mass is not a time for private prayers to be added.

Also, speaking in Tongues with out someone providing an interpretation in a gathering is also wrong, at least this is what I learned from my days as a pentecostal.


#9

in answer to OP’s specific question, yes, during the Great Amen is one of the few times this extended praise and praying in tongues is acceptable during Mass. As he noted he is attending a charistmatic parish where this type of workship is understood and respected, not a random Catholic parish where a few charistmatics are disrupting the Mass for everyone else. I would also guess that even at this parish there is only one charismatic style Mass and other Masses are more traditional. there are many variations on the sung Great Amen, and this is one of them.

as for a discussion of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, an orthordox respected spirituality within the Church that enjoyed the full blessing of our late pope, we already have dozens of threads on the topic, I suggest a search, so that this discussion can stay on topic. Since the OP questions was not “what is your personal opinion of the orthodoxy and sanity of individuals who pray and worship in a charismatic style” I suggest such reflections are off topic.


#10

**To which the Moderator adds a hearty :amen:

**


#11

[quote=puzzleannie]in answer to OP’s specific question, yes, during the Great Amen is one of the few times this extended praise and praying in tongues is acceptable during Mass. As he noted he is attending a charistmatic parish where this type of workship is understood and respected, not a random Catholic parish where a few charistmatics are disrupting the Mass for everyone else. I would also guess that even at this parish there is only one charismatic style Mass and other Masses are more traditional. there are many variations on the sung Great Amen, and this is one of them.

as for a discussion of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, an orthordox respected spirituality within the Church that enjoyed the full blessing of our late pope, we already have dozens of threads on the topic, I suggest a search, so that this discussion can stay on topic. Since the OP questions was not “what is your personal opinion of the orthodoxy and sanity of individuals who pray and worship in a charismatic style” I suggest such reflections are off topic.
[/quote]

Not trying to be a pest or nasty or anything, but could you point me to some official church documentation that allows these practices in the context of a Mass?


#12

[quote=puzzleannie]in answer to OP’s specific question, yes, during the Great Amen is one of the few times this extended praise and praying in tongues is acceptable during Mass. As he noted he is attending a charistmatic parish where this type of workship is understood and respected, not a random Catholic parish where a few charistmatics are disrupting the Mass for everyone else. I would also guess that even at this parish there is only one charismatic style Mass and other Masses are more traditional. there are many variations on the sung Great Amen, and this is one of them…
[/quote]

Does anyone out there have some direction they can point me in to demonstrate that there are places within the Mass where Charismatic practices are specifically allowed? I thought that given the tome of the above quote the GIRM must have something in there that addresses it.

Maybe I’m incompetant, but I really haven’t been able to find anything specific anywhere. I did find some tips for presiding at a Charismatic mass that said people could be encouraged at certain times, but that is really about it.

Please help, I want to know where the official guidelines from the church are concerning charismatic activity in the Mass.


#13

You know what I would like to see?

A contemplative Mass (Novus Ordo). Instead of outward emotion, a sense of inward peace.

I think that would be 10 times as successful as anything the Charismatics do.


#14

The General Instruction does not seem to support an “extended praise” for any of the sung responses. It only says that the people make the acclamation, “Amen.”

  1. The chief elements making up the Eucharistic Prayer may be distinguished in this way: h. Final doxology: By which the glorification of God is expressed and is confirmed and concluded by the people’s acclamation, Amen.

usccb.org/liturgy/current/chapter2.shtml#sect3c

  1. … At the end of the Eucharistic Prayer, the priest takes the paten with the host and the chalice and elevates them both while alone singing or saying the doxology, Per ipsum (Through him). At the end the people make the acclamation, Amen.

usccb.org/liturgy/current/chapter4.shtml#sect1a

  1. At the final doxology of the Eucharistic Prayer, the deacon stands next to the priest, holding the chalice elevated while the priest elevates the paten with the host, until the people have responded with the acclamation, Amen.

usccb.org/liturgy/current/chapter4.shtml#sect1b

Chapter Nine of the Instruction, which is the section that empowers the Bishops and their Conferences to make adaptations, does not contain a section on the local Bishop allowing a section of “extended praise.” usccb.org/liturgy/current/chapter9.shtml

Hope this helps.


#15

[quote=MusicMan]The General Instruction does not seem to support an “extended praise” for any of the sung responses. It only says that the people make the acclamation, “Amen.”

usccb.org/liturgy/current/chapter2.shtml#sect3c

usccb.org/liturgy/current/chapter4.shtml#sect1a

usccb.org/liturgy/current/chapter4.shtml#sect1b

Chapter Nine of the Instruction, which is the section that empowers the Bishops and their Conferences to make adaptations, does not contain a section on the local Bishop allowing a section of “extended praise.” usccb.org/liturgy/current/chapter9.shtml

Hope this helps.
[/quote]

Yeah, I really didn’t think there was anything that would officially permit it. Thanks for looking. I actually expected more responses on it though. Oh well, maybe they know deep down it shouldn’t be done in the context of the Mass. In Charismatic prayer meetings, sure go for it, but the Mass?? I have a very hard time with that.


#16

This was discussed in another thread sometime ago. In that thread I raised the issue that some people label what they do not like as “abuse” while supporting abuses that they do like.

As I said there and have said many times. Abuse is abuse whether you like it or not. To approve of one abuse just makes the other abuses that much more legitimate.

That is unless someone can show the official Church documents that allow this “extended praise”.


#17

[quote=ByzCath]This was discussed in another thread sometime ago. In that thread I raised the issue that some people label what they do not like as “abuse” while supporting abuses that they do like.

As I said there and have said many times. Abuse is abuse whether you like it or not. To approve of one abuse just makes the other abuses that much more legitimate.

That is unless someone can show the official Church documents that allow this “extended praise”.
[/quote]

The problem is, “abuse” differs for whatever country it is held in. From other threads, certain countries hold receiving Holy Communion by the hand as an abuse, yet others not so. Could the Masses in Africa be considered having liturgical abuses because of the usage of indigenous instruments? Does this make the traditional African Liturgy an abuse?

It is indeed the Bishop who decides. I as well see nothing intrinsically wrong with it, and many Charismatics I have seen and known pray the rosary often, and love the Mass much more than any other Catholics I have seen. Whether Charismatics themselves are nothing but disgruntled individuals who are bored of Latin prayers is subjective, and off topic. I myself am a Charismatic, who also participates in the TLM once a month and prays the rosary in Latin :slight_smile:


#18

very good point. The Charismatic movement did indeed have the blessing of John Paul II - end of discussion about whether or not it’s a valid movement, no?

I spent a lot of time in this movement, then out of it, then left the church, came back - and realise, looking back at my life, that my most profound experiences of God - talking supernatural experiences here - and times of deepest faith and love for God, and times of greatest growth in faith, were times that I was around the Charismatic movement, or being ministered too by people in it. so no doubts about it being a real work of God from me.


#19

yep. this is a good pointer to how many labels we apply to other people are nonsense. what exactly is “a liberal”? or “an orthodox person?” or a “conservative Catholic?” how do you decide? like you say, you’re a charismatic - so some people, if that’s all they heard, would call you a screaming liberal; and you pray the rosary in Latin - so some people would call you a reactionary conservative if that was all you said.

these labels - esp. liberal and conservative - are unworkable. No one deserves to be put in a box, but it happens all to ooften. It’s lazy, unhelpful, and frankly, scandalous.


#20

[quote=MusicMan]The General Instruction does not seem to support an “extended praise” for any of the sung responses. It only says that the people make the acclamation, “Amen.”

usccb.org/liturgy/current/chapter2.shtml#sect3c

usccb.org/liturgy/current/chapter4.shtml#sect1a

usccb.org/liturgy/current/chapter4.shtml#sect1b

Chapter Nine of the Instruction, which is the section that empowers the Bishops and their Conferences to make adaptations, does not contain a section on the local Bishop allowing a section of “extended praise.” usccb.org/liturgy/current/chapter9.shtml

Hope this helps.
[/quote]

all this… I don’t know. just because a documnet says “do this” doesn’t mean that there mightn’t be something else we can do as well as that.
For example,
I bet tthe instructions on the sign of peace don’t say anything specific about smiling, or couples giving each other a kiss instead of shaking hands, or a dad ruffling his toddler’s hair, or even flicking a peace sign when you can’t reach your friend down the end of the row - but this is all quite acceptable surely?

I wonder what would happen if more people remembered that Mass is a community celebration, not just something between them and God and woe betide any one who messes with their private devotion by living life to the full?


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