Charismatics---continued


#1

I can’t post in that original thread either

[quote=Les Richardson]Hey Makerteacher, how’s that for long-winded?
[/quote]

Do you honestly think anyone will read all that? Could yiu give us the condensed version?

You have stated that those involved in CCR are just about the only Catholics to speak about a personal relationship with Jesus. Maybe it would be productive to find an authentic CCR group, and propose your theories?

There are channels for everything. The best theory in the world is of no use, if you do not have a vehicle to promote it.


#2

[quote=Mysty101]I can’t post in that original thread either

Do you honestly think anyone will read all that? Could yiu give us the condensed version?

You have stated that those involved in CCR are just about the only Catholics to speak about a personal relationship with Jesus. Maybe it would be productive to find an authentic CCR group, and propose your theories?

There are channels for everything. The best theory in the world is of no use, if you do not have a vehicle to promote it.
[/quote]

Come now, Mysty101, it sounds as though you’ve read it, or some of it. I’ve actually seen longer series of posts. Beyond that, I had started the thread and felt a certain responsibility to bring it around to what I have trying to get at throughout. (If I had a website I’d write a treatise and post a one-liner and a link) That was the condensed version. The comment to Makerteacher was simply a response to another post in which Makerteacher apologized for long-windedness.

It seemed to me, when I first read some of the materials, promotions, and other statements from charismatic groups that it was indeed the case that they were almost the only ones using that particular expression at least, ie. “personal relationship with Jesus Christ.” It caught my eye, having come from an evangelical Protestant background, and that is an expression central to their approach to salvation. Over time, being tuned for the expression, I have heard it elsewhere, particularly, as I mentioned, on EWTN. That is why I was so excited by Fr Cantalamessa’s analysis in his discourse on the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, when I found it and read it. He actually makes the case for what I was elaborating on in my lengthy posts, perhaps without realizing it, for he was focussed on the “Baptism of the Spirit”.

You no doubt read Makerteacher’s description of the community in Texas. Other than the wild prayer meetings, I would likely find that a comfortable place to be. However, this isn’t about me being comfortable.
As to vehicle, I am working on that too. God will provide when the time is right. Highly unlikely that it would be any part of the CCR. Realistically, going into this discussion I had been aware of many warnings that it is almost futile to make the points that I have to charismatics. Do you think that anyone in any charismatic group, authentic or otherwise, would listen to me in essence tell them they are off center in their practices and the theology that underpins them? Actually, this format is better, because individuals can read points of view here and have the opportunity privately to think about them and perhaps re-think. And more importantly, someone who has an interest can have the benefit of another point of view with reasons for it.
But most of all, and the reason for the lengthy posts, is that I would not be accomplishing anything by mere critique, if I did not offer an alternative. Read it again if you can spare the time, and I think you will see that we’re not talking theory, but the core of the gospel, from which we stray at our own risk.
And I do believe that someone’s salvation and sanctification may well depend on whether not they can get the charismatic movement into context and perspective in their mind.
For that reason alone, this is worthwhile.


#3

Les Richardson,

You have the ability to put rather difficult concepts into understandable language. May I prevail upon you to put this attitude, concept or practice into Catholic Language?

I will ramble here to put the idea across. Isn’t there some Catholic writting that says one shouldn’t try to go away from the traditions and attempt to find “special” secret advantages or paths to the Spiritual Life? I forget where I read that.

Padre Pio was as Spiritual as any 20th Century man/priest was and he din’t try to use special prayers. He was a traditional Catholic who had been given chriasms. Why do some few Catholics try to seek out a special but nontraditional prayer life?
<padrepio.catholicwebservices.com/ENGLISH/The_Devil.htm


#4

[quote=Exporter] Why do some few Catholics try to seek out a special but nontraditional prayer life?
<padrepio.catholicwebservices.com/ENGLISH/The_Devil.htm
[/quote]

What is “special” or nontraditional about the charisms ‘found’ in the Charismatic Movement? They are a traditional part of the Church’s lived experience. They are rooted in both scripture and tradition, and they have the approval of the Pope.

Personally, I do not in any way consider myself a member of the Charismatic Movement. I am, however, a Roman Catholic who strives to live out my baptismal calling with dignity–and that includes the discernment and use of the charisms I received at my Baptism.

Keith Strohm


#5

[quote=Keith Strohm]What is “special” or nontraditional about the charisms ‘found’ in the Charismatic Movement? They are a traditional part of the Church’s lived experience. They are rooted in both scripture and tradition, and they have the approval of the Pope.

Personally, I do not in any way consider myself a member of the Charismatic Movement. I am, however, a Roman Catholic who strives to live out my baptismal calling with dignity–and that includes the discernment and use of the charisms I received at my Baptism.

Keith Strohm
[/quote]


Keith, did you read the link to Padre Pio. At the bottom of each page there is a menu. There are possibly 8 pages on Padre Pio.

You say the Charismatic Movement is a traditional part of the Church’s lived experience. Why is it a “Movement” then if it has been traditional? The answer is that it has not been traditional, it is new having been constructed since 1980.

You indicated that you want to live with dignity. Did I write something that was undignified? I do try to tell the truth, and sometimes the truth hits like a hammer. People don’t like the truth in certain cases. Yes, I did compare the spiritual life of a Saint, Padre Pio, with the “Quick Fix” wantabes.:yup:


#6

[quote=Exporter]---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“Quick Fix” wantabes.:yup:
[/quote]

And who might these be?


#7

[quote=Les Richardson]Come now, Mysty101, it sounds as though you’ve read it, or some of it. I’ve actually seen longer series of posts. .
[/quote]

Actually I didn’t and I haven’t

It seemed to me, when I first read some of the materials, promotions, and other statements from charismatic groups that it was indeed the case that they were almost the only ones using that particular expression at least, ie. “personal relationship with Jesus Christ.”

CCR is a movement supported by the Pope and officially approved. What is the basis for what you propose?

You no doubt read Makerteacher’s description of the community in Texas. Other than the wild prayer meetings, I would likely find that a comfortable place to be

I am very familiar with authentic Catholic Charismatic worship. I have my own experiences.

. However, this isn’t about me being comfortable.
As to vehicle, I am working on that too. God will provide when the time is right. Highly unlikely that it would be any part of the CCR.

Do you have any Catholic authority supporting what you propose?

Do you think that anyone in any charismatic group, authentic or otherwise, would listen to me in essence tell them they are off center in their practices and the theology that underpins them?

Would they listen to a lay individual who thinks he knows better than the many Bishops and Priests involved in CCR? I doubt it. Who else knows this wonderful secret?


#8

[quote=Mysty101]And who might these be?
[/quote]


Mysty101 asked who are the “quick-fix wantabes”. Mysty101 has proven to be an adequate poster with the ability to write lucidly. Therefor I believe she/he knows what I meant by “quick-fix wantabes”.

But in the case that I am wrong and overestimated Mysty’s insight I will try to explain further. There was a fictional queen who had a magic mirror, the queen would ask,“Who is the fairest Queen in the land”? That was a quick-fix. In a short story by deMoupisant, not well know, a well-to-do Lady would ask her devout sevant to go to Church and pray for her and bring back Holy Water. She was a wanta-be.

Then there are modern Catholics who think there is something different from Traditional Catholocism that will assure their spiritualty will rise to a higher plane. Any group of people, be it 2 or 20 that tries to approach the Holy Spirit via transendental meditation, hypnosis or through the incantations of Hindu Gods are at least suspect and at most sacreligious and not Catholic.

Quick-fix wantabes can be ignorant people who don’t know that their quick-fix, fast food, want satisfaction NOW! The Church has never taught that there is a quick-fix. There are no room for race cars, its the steady diesel truck that makes it to the destination.

I have tried to explain my simple statement, say, “Thanks”.


#9

[quote=Exporter] Then there are modern Catholics who think there is something different from Traditional Catholocism that will assure their spiritualty will rise to a higher plane. Any group of people, be it 2 or 20 that tries to approach the Holy Spirit via transendental meditation, hypnosis or through the incantations of Hindu Gods are at least suspect and at most sacreligious and not Catholic.
[/quote]

Just want to be sure here, are you stating that Catholics who are also Charismatic fall into this category?

[quote=Exporter]Quick-fix wantabes can be ignorant people who don’t know that their quick-fix, fast food, want satisfaction NOW! The Church has never taught that there is a quick-fix. There are no room for race cars, its the steady diesel truck that makes it to the destination.
[/quote]

Our society is especially fond of the instant gratification style of spirituality. Are you stating here that Catholic Charismatics are guilty of wanting something “right now” and that is why they must be part of the Renewal? That they are somehow disatisfied with being Catholic and need to add more to it to find their way?


#10

[quote=Mysty101]Would they listen to a lay individual who thinks he knows better than the many Bishops and Priests involved in CCR? I doubt it. Who else knows this wonderful secret?
[/quote]

Do you think they would listen? I doubt it myself.

It is no secret, Mysty101. It’s right in front of all of us. It’s contained in the Cathechism and the Bible from one end to the other. I’m sure you know it because you’ve said you are a catechist. In fact, I think you would agree with most of my lengthy post.

“Realistically, going into this discussion I had been aware of many warnings that it is almost futile to make the points that I have to charismatics.” I will add a qualifier. “Some” charismatics. I have to be honest, I’ve met some in these forums who, while they don’t agree, are willing to listen.

As to support from the Pope, are you suggesting that the Pope supports everything that goes on within the CCR? If not, what does he support, and what doesn’t he support? Specifically.


#11

[quote=Exporter]************************************************************************
But in the case that I am wrong and overestimated Mysty’s insight I will try to explain further. .
[/quote]

I guess i need to be more specific.

Are you calling CCR “quick-fix wantabes” ? I am not sure, since you are mentioning a few different prayer methods (some /catholic, others questionable)


#12

PS I’m sorry—I see this question was already asked.


#13

Les, excellent questions.

Maria


#14

Makerteacher,
You wrote," Are you stating here that Catholic Charismatics are guilty of wanting something “right now” and that is why they must be part of the Renewal? "

In general terms, I don’t know what your are talking about.

Spefically, what did you mean by “part of the Renewal?”. It is the part that’s underlined. Why is Renewal capitalized? Renewal of what? Oh yes, I went back and reread my posts. I wrote what I meant. Please don’t try to put words that didn’t belong into my posts.
Thanks.


#15

Mysty101,

I have given it some more thought and I think you may be right, it is possible to condense that lengthy post from the other thread. The best way to do that would be to pose a series of questions.

  1. Is it possible to experience the “Baptism of the Spirit” without speaking in tongues, interpreting tongues or praying in tongues? (I mention praying in tongues separately because that is the way that most charismatics want to define it.)
  2. If the answer to number 1 is “yes”, is such a thing very likely? If likely is it common? In what proportion?
  3. Is speaking or praying in tongues a sign of the Baptism of the Spirit, or/and is there some other purpose?
  4. Is it the Holy Spirit that decides what charismatic gift(s) a person will receive or is that a function of the desire or request of the individual?
  5. Can the “gift” of tongues be taught or induced (spoken or prayer)?
  6. What state of mind and heart must a person be in to receive the Baptism of the Spirit?
  7. Is the Baptism of the Spirit always an event or could it happen gradually over time?
  8. If a Catholic recieves the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Confirmation, how is it necessary or possible to experience the “Baptism of the Spirit”?
  9. In general, is “Baptism of the Spirit” a necessary part of Church renewal? (the movement uses the word Renewal in its name)
  10. If not, how otherwise might the renewal of the Church be accomplished, and what would it have in common with the Catholic Chraismatic Renewal? (in other words, what is renewal and why is it necessary)

That doesn’t cover everything but some of the highlights. These questions are posed for the purpose of evoking thought and do not require an answer. If you wish to answer some or all, by all means, go ahead.
You mentioned my theories in your first post here. One more question.
11. If I told you I was charismatic, and have the gift of prophecy, would you be more inclined to read my lengthy posts?


#16

Les,
I will try to respond to some of your points- not necessarily in order
Obviously we are light years apart in our thoughts on CCR.

  1. If I told you I was charismatic, and have the gift of prophecy, would you be more inclined to read my lengthy posts?

Absolutely not-actually less likely These are not Parlor games, and the gift which I understand would more in keeping with this discussion would be Knowledge.
I peronally would never take someone’s boasting of a gift as an indication that they did possess a gift. I would want to know who discerned the gift, and the qualifications of the discerner.

  1. Is it the Holy Spirit that decides what charismatic gift(s) a person will receive ?

Absolutely

You are mixing apples and oranges when you try to speak of renewal in general and CCR.

CCR does not believe that the Holy Spirit comes only through CCR. I believe that this is the root of most outsiders objection to CCR.

The most important aspects of CCR are praising God, and allowing the Spirit to use us and work through us. Our core leadership group in the US is called the National Service Team. Our Conference leadership is the Service team. We are called to serve. We pray for many people–We have prayer chains, prayer meetings–always with petition baskets. We love God and our neighbor. We are enthusiastic, but not because we think we are better, or have something you don’t have. We all have the Holy Spirit. We just want everyone to realize what they have.

Baptism in the Spirit is a physical surrendering to Jesus. In CCR there is usually a service involved. This is a term, usually indicitive of CCR, but anyone can and should turn their life and will over to Jesus.

  1. Is it possible to experience the “Baptism of the Spirit” without speaking in tongues, interpreting tongues or praying in tongues? (I mention praying in tongues separately because that is the way that most charismatics want to define it.)

Just call it “surrendering to Jesus”

  1. If the answer to number 1 is “yes”, is such a thing very likely? If likely is it common? In what proportion.

This is something I should be asking you.

CCR came into the Church because the Holy Spirit was left on the back shelf for too long. This is a specific form of renewal. Any renewal which encourages Catholics to allow the Spirit to work through them is wonderful.
Many people believe that this renewal should encompass the entire Church, and I agree it should, but we do need to take into consideration the style of worship which people prefer. There is nothing wrong with allowing people to choose between legitimate styles.


#17

ps

CCR does not believe that the Holy Spirit comes only through CCR. I believe that this is the root of most outsiders objection to CCR.

When I use the term “outsider” I certainly do not mean everyone is not welcome. I am referring to those who criticize CCR without ever have seen an authentic Catholic group.


#18

[quote=Les Richardson]As to support from the Pope, are you suggesting that the Pope supports everything that goes on within the CCR? If not, what does he support, and what doesn’t he support? Specifically.
[/quote]

I’m re-posting what Les said here because it would help to see the CCR at least to some degree, as the Pope see it.

It would also help if someone who is very mature in living the Renewal as the Pope sees it were to come to this message board. Who knows how many people might be attracted to the CCR by the life and witness of that person.

Maria


#19

[quote=Mysty101]Les,
Obviously we are light years apart in our thoughts on CCR.
[/quote]

Well, after this post I see we are in agreement on some points.

Absolutely not-actually less likely These are not Parlor games, and the gift which I understand would more in keeping with this discussion would be Knowledge.
I peronally would never take someone’s boasting of a gift as an indication that they did possess a gift. I would want to know who discerned the gift, and the qualifications of the discerner.

I’m glad you responded that way, because it is precisely how I see that issue.

You are mixing apples and oranges when you try to speak of renewal in general and CCR.

My point in another series of posts to Makerteacher was that the originals in the CCR had a much broader vision. My opinion is that it is the clinging to certain practices that relegates the CCR to a “style” or “movement” amongst many. And I still suggest that it doesn’t have to be that way, although the likelihood of it reaching any broader goal at this point in time is getting more and more remote. The point of my question was to get at the issue of what essentially renewal is all about at the individual level.

CCR does not believe that the Holy Spirit comes only through CCR. I believe that this is the root of most outsiders objection to CCR.

Possibly. It’s never been my problem with CCR. I know absolutely that the Holy Spirit acts and moves in hearts and minds independent of CCR. In fact, there is a broad understanding of the work of God in us contained in 2000 years of authentic Catholic Christian teaching.

We are enthusiastic, but not because we think we are better, or have something you don’t have. We all have the Holy Spirit. We just want everyone to realize what they have.

I want to make it clear, I have no problem with enthusiasm, and the goal here is the same as mine.

Baptism in the Spirit is a physical surrendering to Jesus. In CCR there is usually a service involved.

This is where I begin to have a problem. The service, and what it entails. I think it is borrowed protestantism, in thinking and practice.

This is a term, usually indicitive of CCR, but anyone can and should turn their life and will over to Jesus.

Absolutely. Amen.

Just call it “surrendering to Jesus”

I would be willing to call it that, if there wasn’t any “tongues” preparation and inducement leading me to think that those in charge actually believe that “tongues” is the primary, if not only, indicator of the in filling of the Holy Spirit, and are not willing to leave it up to the Holy Spirit.

This is something I should be asking you.

Since you asked. Everything about the history of Christianity, Holy Tradition and Holy Scripture tells me that, ***if left to the working of the Holy Spirit, ***lives are transformed by the power of the Holy Spirit with the incidence of tongues as a rare event and usually for a specific reason we may only later understand.

CCR came into the Church because the Holy Spirit was left on the back shelf for too long.

I suspect that is true. As a convert I don’t know it for a fact personally.

This is a specific form of renewal.

It has become so, yes.

Any renewal which encourages Catholics to allow the Spirit to work through them is wonderful.

Agreed. Again Amen.

Many people believe that this renewal should encompass the entire Church, and I agree it should, but we do need to take into consideration the style of worship which people prefer. There is nothing wrong with allowing people to choose between legitimate styles.

As it is, it won’t encompass the entire church and will remain a “style”, and generally I think that is sad. But I will give it credit for stimulating discussion of the central issue you have mentioned, ie. surrendering our lives to Jesus Christ. That we can agree on as well, yes?


#20

[quote=1 Maria]It would also help if someone who is very mature in living the Renewal as the Pope sees it were to come to this message board. Who knows how many people might be attracted to the CCR by the life and witness of that person.

Maria
[/quote]

Maria,
You know what the problem is? The Pope has not been very specific, although he has focussed on the “fruits” of the CCR. From that we can only speculate, but reasonably so.

My opinion, and it is only my opinion, is the following. John-Paul II knows what teaching there is in the body of Tradition and Scripture in reference to the charisms. The most specific discussion is in St. Paul’s letter to the Corinthian church. There is plenty there to get a very good understanding of the overall approach and attitude we need to have. I would suggest that he is reluctant to fire off rules, regulations and guidelines in the hope that those things will sort themselves out as you suggest, through mature individual leaders in the movement itself. The Church has always been slow to lay down the law, so to speak, for inevitably that feeds legalism, and those who see their faith in a legalistic way. It also turns away those who see the legalism and miss the obscured message that underlies it. The balancing of these things has been the same problem for every Pope.
Furthermore, this Pope has spoken and written over and over on evangelization, inside and outside the Church, and on holiness. In other words a “Renewal”. The heart and center of such a renewal is that assent of faith, that “surrendering of our lives to Jesus Christ,” as Mysty101 has so rightly focussed on in the previous post. I believe, and I think he believes, that is the center-piece of renewal across the Church, in and out of any particular movement. Further, I think that he may well have had a hope for the CCR that it might become the vehicle for that. How he sees it now I don’t know.
But again, all of this is my opinion, and is likely colored by my own hope for the Church.


DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.