Charitable refute of OSAS?

I am wondering: Have any members of this forum ever utilized the story of Judas as part of the argument to refute OSAS?
I am beginning to formulate a bit of a talking point around this and would really appreciate the input of my friends here at CAF.

Judas is clearly shown to be a disciple and Apostle.
Though we don’t have the same exact texts as we do with say, Peter, James and John, it can be safely assumed that Judas, like the other 11, dropped everything and followed Jesus immediately. We can know this based on stories of others who did not do this and were quickly condemned by Jesus Himself (man who wanted to bury the dead, rich young man, etc).
Thus, at one point in his life, he can be said to have faith in Christ. Even a ‘true’ faith (How many people would give up everything they own to follow Jesus based on a ‘meh’ faith?)

We further know that at some point, late in Jesus’ ministry, Judas’ faith became misdirected. He expected Jesus to become a military leader. He attempted to force a confrontation between Jesus and the Jewish faith leadership. This led to, in hindsight, an outright betrayal of Jesus.
I’m not necessarily trying to paint Judas as a sympathetic figure, but rather to show that it IS possible for one to have ‘true faith’ at one point in your life, and lose that same ‘true faith’ at another.

Nor do I condemn Judas to hell or presume he is in purgatory or Heaven…judgement is not for me on this issue. I think all three assumptions can in fact help make a case for OSAS being false.

It’s a loose start to a working argument on this subject. Please poke holes in it for me. The concept came to me at 5:35am, so it could easily just be a crazy idea…

Thanks in advance for your critiques of the concept.

Peace in Christ

What is OSAS???

Yes, it’s sensible and yes, folks have used this logic before in regard to OSAS. It’s easy to forget that Judas went out with the other disciples and performed miracles in Christ’s name with the rest of them.

Some non-Catholics say that Judas was never really a “true disciple”, but their evidence for this is his choice to sin later. But even Paul said the he struggled with sin (Rom 7:15). I wrote a bit about this very point in this article:

The Vine and the Branches -Once Saved Always Saved?

The problem here is that folks who believe in OSAS (that is, “Once Saved Always Saved”) use precisely the logic that “if someone backslides, he was never truly saved to begin with”. It’s difficult to refute that logic (not because it’s rock-solid, mind you, but because it’s illogical!).

At first blush, this sounds like an excellent proof! Yet, it seems to me that it could be easily rebutted: ““Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’”

Some non-Catholics say that Judas was never really a “true disciple”, but their evidence for this is his choice to sin later.

For some, perhaps. But the argument I’ve typically heard is that he turned away from Jesus (implicitly, a ‘permanent’ turning away), and that’s the proof of his lack of having been saved. :shrug:

OK, I get it from the previous poster.

Judas: One theory is that Judas saw Jesus escaping from the crowds and authorities time after time, and he figured he simply would do it again. He figured to make some easy money and no harm would be done. When he realized Jesus was submitting to being arrested, he was surprised and so ashamed that he killed himself.

As for the theory “once saved always saved,” I confess I never heard of it. It sounds like some fundamentalist Protestant thing, very Calvinistic. It also sounds like nonsense.

If you want a refutation, simply look at Paul in 1 Corinthians. Paul convinced the Corinthians they were saved by the death of Jesus. Some of them thought that their faith would save them and their actions wouldn’t matter. So they began doing all sorts of things. Paul had to write 1 Corinthians to tell them, “Hey, wait a minute. Your actions count!”

To me it’s very simple. By dying, Jesus opened the door to salvation. That doesn’t mean you have to walk through the door–that’s up to you. Without Jesus, the door wouldn’t be open; your actions can’t open the door. But once it’s open, it’s up to you.

There is an antinomian streak in most religions–the idea that rules are for the masses, and the more enlightened you are, the less you need to follow the rules. The OSAS seems to be simply a version of this.

Another thought that ties in with one of my pet peeves.

I can see how people could say “Once you are save you are always saved” and then defend it by saying that if you really sinned later on (Judas, etc.) it simply proves that you weren’t really saved in the first place.

It’s very much like saying “it was meant to be” or some such nonsense–that everything that happens is pre-destined and part of “God’s plan.” In other words, by virtue of something happening, it proves that it was part of God’s plan. Very circular and very silly.

Okay, we know that “Once Saved, Always Saved” doesn’t make sense - but, the problem is, there are a few variations of the philosophy. Version 1 is that, if you’re “saved”, it’s impossible for you to commit a serious sin - and if you do, you were never really “saved” to begin with. This seems to be part of the original Calvinist philosophy.

Version 2 (which seems to be something being battled during the early Church, but came back during colonial America) is, “once you profess Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, it doesn’t matter what you do after that, because you’ll end up in Heaven anyway.” And there seems to be many who seem to have something between the two main versions of the “OSAS” philosophy.

The problem with fighting the “OSAS” philosophy is that it’s just too fluid - you really don’t know what a person means when they state “Once Saved, Always Saved”.

Thank you SO much for your response! I found your article to be insightful and very helpful. Is it OK with you if I quote some of what you said on ‘Christians Forums’? I am involved in a discussion there on this subject and much of what you said echoes my sentiments and I think will be fruitful to ‘proving’ my points.
I am not out to ‘crush’ or flame anyone who holds to OSAS, but rather seeking charitable dialogue to expose The Truth.

Thanks again!

Peace in Christ

Thank you! I appreciate all your thoughts and comments. Only The Holy Spirit will change hearts about OSAS, but I’m working to expose the Truth about it!

Peace in Christ

=Hawkiz;13008992]I am wondering: Have any members of this forum ever utilized the story of Judas as part of the argument to refute OSAS?
I am beginning to formulate a bit of a talking point around this and would really appreciate the input of my friends here at CAF.

Judas is clearly shown to be a disciple and Apostle.
Though we don’t have the same exact texts as we do with say, Peter, James and John, it can be safely assumed that Judas, like the other 11, dropped everything and followed Jesus immediately. We can know this based on stories of others who did not do this and were quickly condemned by Jesus Himself (man who wanted to bury the dead, rich young man, etc).
Thus, at one point in his life, he can be said to have faith in Christ. Even a ‘true’ faith (How many people would give up everything they own to follow Jesus based on a ‘meh’ faith?)

We further know that at some point, late in Jesus’ ministry, Judas’ faith became misdirected. He expected Jesus to become a military leader. He attempted to force a confrontation between Jesus and the Jewish faith leadership. This led to, in hindsight, an outright betrayal of Jesus.
I’m not necessarily trying to paint Judas as a sympathetic figure, but rather to show that it IS possible for one to have ‘true faith’ at one point in your life, and lose that same ‘true faith’ at another.

Nor do I condemn Judas to hell or presume he is in purgatory or Heaven…judgement is not for me on this issue. I think all three assumptions can in fact help make a case for OSAS being false.

It’s a loose start to a working argument on this subject. Please poke holes in it for me. The concept came to me at 5:35am, so it could easily just be a crazy idea…

Thanks in advance for your critiques of the concept.

Peace in Christ

OSAS = Once saved ALWAYS Saved [can’t be lost] which is not biblically supportable when using the entire bible.

To the OP:

Here are passages for you to ponder and pray about:

Mt. 26:23-26 But he answering, said: He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, he shall betray me. The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man shall be betrayed: it were better for him, if that man had not been born. And Judas that betrayed him, answering, said: Is it I, Rabbi? He saith to him: Thou hast said it."

This is repeated in Mk. 14:21

As the source is Christ Speaking, it would seem to be certain that Judas did not accept Christ offer of forgiveness in Mt. 27: 3-4 “Then Judas, who betrayed him, seeing that he was condemned, repenting himself, brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and ancients, Saying: I have sinned in betraying innocent blood. But they said: What is that to us? look thou to it.” SO WHILE Jesus WAS WILLING TO FORGIVE Judas ; Judas was unable to forgive himself!

John 6:71-72 " Jesus answered them: Have not I chosen you twelve; and one of you is a devil? Now he meant Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon: for this same was about to betray him, whereas he was one of the twelve."

Acts 1: 16-18 " Men, brethren, the scripture must needs be fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who was the leader of them that apprehended Jesus: Who was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. And he indeed hath possessed a field of the reward of iniquity, and being hanged, burst asunder in the midst: and all his bowels gushed out"

While I agree friend OP that we ought not judge: it seems that Jesus and bible are certain of Judas outcome:(

God Bless you,

Patrick.

A couple more Scriptures to keep in mind ( and these are very few compared to the many that refute this dangerous doctrine)

For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. 2 Peter 2:20-21

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, Hebrews 10:26

If I tell a righteous person that they will surely live, but then they trust in their righteousness and do evil, none of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered; they will die for the evil they have done. Ezekiel 33:13

For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift* and shared in the holy Spirit and tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to bring them to repentance again, since they are recrucifying the Son of God for themselves* and holding him up to contempt. Hebrews 6:4-6

I suspect that those who ascribe to OSAS simply look at these Scriptures and say to themselves that those people were never saved in the first place. This loophole is in my view one of the most astonishing contradictions in the teaching of OSAS. But in my view, these Scriptures make it pretty clear that people who have received the Gospel into their hearts can reject God and fall away.

Oh another one that is good is St. Paul to the Corinthians :

But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified. 1 Cor 9:27

If St. Paul is mindful of the possibility of being disqualified, I think all of us should be!:slight_smile:

Here are a couple of ideas that may help make them put on their thinking cap.

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=805930
“I asked a friend at church and she said as long as I believe in Jesus my saviour we can live a homosexual lifestyle and still be saved so I do not know what to believe.”

The second thought is… ask if they know of anyone who lives a perfect life?
To highlight this, bring up the prayer of the Pharisee and the prayer of the sinner. Who was praised by Jesus?

May God our Father give you grace and peace.

Here is a quiz you can ask them to answer.

The Once-Saved-Always-Saved Quiz by Gary Hoge

Ezekiel 18:21-22, 24
“If a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him.”
“But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.”

Question:
If a wicked man turns away from his sins and is justified, and then turns back to his sins, will he still live?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see those verses

1 Corinthians 11:32
“When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.”

Question:
Is it possible for a Christian to be condemned with the world?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

Extra credit:
According to the Bible, why does God discipline us?
(HINT: “To prevent us from being ___________ with the world”)

2 Timothy 2:12
“If we disown him, he will also disown us.”

Question:
If a Christian repudiates Christ, will he himself be repudiated?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

Revelation 22:14, 19
“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city . . . If anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.”

Question:
If a Christian takes words away from the book of revelation, will he lose his share in the tree of life and to be excluded from the holy city?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

1 Timothy 3:6
“[A potential bishop must not be] a new convert, lest he become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.”

Question:
Is it possible for a Christian to fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

2 Peter 2:20-21
“For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them.”

Bonus Essay Question:
If a Christian cannot lose his salvation, even if he becomes entangled in the pollutions of the world, how can such entanglement be described as worse than his first (unsaved) condition? How can it be said of a saved man, “It would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness”?

Galatians 5:19-20
“The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.”

Question:
If a Christian lives in the manner described by Paul, will he inherit the kingdom of God?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

Romans 11:22
“Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God; sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.”

Question:
If a Christian does not continue in God’s kindness, will he be cut off?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

1 Corinthians 15:2
“By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise you have believed in vain.”

Question:
If a Christian does not hold firmly to the gospel and falls away, will it be said of him that he believed for nothing?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

Hebrews 4:1, 11
“Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it . . . Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.”

Question:
If a Christian follows the Israelites example of disobedience, will he enter God’s rest?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

This little video may help too

youtube.com/watch?t=138&v=mZBuVERFT9c

Protestant view of OSAS: evangelicaloutreach.org/cat1.htm

[QUOT]=Ignatius;13011714]Here is a quiz you can ask them to answer.

The Once-Saved-Always-Saved Quiz by Gary Hoge

Ezekiel 18:21-22, 24
“If a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him.”
“But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.”

Question:
If a wicked man turns away from his sins and is justified, and then turns back to his sins, will he still live?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see those verses

1 Corinthians 11:32
“When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.”

Question:
Is it possible for a Christian to be condemned with the world?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

Extra credit:
According to the Bible, why does God discipline us?
(HINT: “To prevent us from being ___________ with the world”)

2 Timothy 2:12
“If we disown him, he will also disown us.”

Question:
If a Christian repudiates Christ, will he himself be repudiated?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

Revelation 22:14, 19
“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city . . . If anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.”

Question:
If a Christian takes words away from the book of revelation, will he lose his share in the tree of life and to be excluded from the holy city?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

1 Timothy 3:6
“[A potential bishop must not be] a new convert, lest he become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.”

Question:
Is it possible for a Christian to fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

2 Peter 2:20-21
“For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them.”

Bonus Essay Question:
If a Christian cannot lose his salvation, even if he becomes entangled in the pollutions of the world, how can such entanglement be described as worse than his first (unsaved) condition? How can it be said of a saved man, “It would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness”?

Galatians 5:19-20
“The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.”

Question:
If a Christian lives in the manner described by Paul, will he inherit the kingdom of God?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

Romans 11:22
“Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God; sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.”

Question:
If a Christian does not continue in God’s kindness, will he be cut off?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

1 Corinthians 15:2
“By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise you have believed in vain.”

Question:
If a Christian does not hold firmly to the gospel and falls away, will it be said of him that he believed for nothing?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

Hebrews 4:1, 11
“Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it . . . Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.”

Question:
If a Christian follows the Israelites example of disobedience, will he enter God’s rest?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

This little video may help too

youtube.com/watch?t=138&v=mZBuVERFT9c

Protestant view of OSAS: evangelicaloutreach.org/cat1.htm

Thanks, a very thoughtful reply

There is also the fact that for certain Biblical verses that are used to defend OSAS, the original Greek doesn’t make the case for the OSAS interpretation at all.

I recently commented on this on my blog, but in a nutshell, I dissect John 3:16 and, starting from the original Koine Greek, I explain why the OSAS interpretation is not applicable by analyzing the verb form and how it is best understood in English.

The full post is here.

Great exposition, thanks for th elink.

You make the case that ὁ πιστεύων, as a present active participle, implies continuous belief. (Incidentally, I think it’d be more accurate to argue from the entire phrase – ‘πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων’ (“all those who are believing”), but that’s just a quibble.)

However, it would seem that the more effective proof would come from the other direction – not “all those who are believing”, but rather, “he who does not believe” (ὁ μὴ πιστεύων) because “he has not believed” (μὴ πεπίστευκεν). This verb is in the perfect tense: in other words, a past lack of belief continues on in its effect, unabated by subsequent belief. That is to say: those who, at some point, do not believe (or stop believing) and do not change the effect of that lack of belief, are the ones who have already been judged and therefore, do not come to the light.

Would you please be so kind as to elaborate on the specific verses in 1 Cor. to which you refer? Or at least a more detailed description of the episodes to which you refer? Citing an entire book (letter) of the Bible…leaves a bit too much room for inference, as to what you are actually saying.

Thank you.

:clapping::clapping::clapping:

Good stuff, sir.:thumbsup:

:thumbsup: You’re welcome.

I guess that also works. :thumbsup:

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