Charity, Homosexuality, Scripture, Tradition


#1

I have seen the issue of homosexuality discussed and was amazed that Protestants cannot say that Masturbation is sin. There is of course difficulty with some Protestants accepting Birth Control as sin. I have seen postings from those claiming to be Christian promoting homosexuality. I have seen confused transgendered wanting the Church to change teachings. This is the teaching of the Church. It is based on the 6th commandment. It is not based on Science, polls, research, vote....it is based on Scripture and Tradition..

ARTICLE 6
THE SIXTH COMMANDMENT

You shall not commit adultery.113
You have heard that it was said, "You shall not commit adultery." But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.114

Chastity and homosexuality

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. *Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved. *
2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

Do any Catholics see the Church changing this view on homosexuality, transgendered, etc.

Do Homosexuals or those that promote Homosexuality understand what the Church bases its teachings on and why it cannot and will not change.

Same Sex Marriage, Transgender, etc all fall under this teaching.

Thoughts?


#2

It is not based only on Scripture and Tradition, but also on reason.

No, the Church will not be substantially changing her teaching on this or any matter of faith and morals. The Holy Spirit will prevent anything of the sort from happening.

Historically, most Protestants concurred with us, whether on the basis of Scripture, reason, and perhaps even Tradition (redefined), that masturbation and contraception are wrong. This began to shift around 1930, and even more in the 1960s. There are still some Protestants who share our moral convictions on these issues, but I dare say they are now a tiny minority.

Acceptance of these two sins undermines the rational basis for the rejection of homosexuality, perhaps fatally. There is still the Biblical disapproval, more explicit for sodomy than for masturbation or contraception, and this seems to be sufficient, for the time being at least, to keep most Protestants in opposition to sodomy. However, without a recognized living, authoritative Magisterium to guide them, some Protestants find a way to reinterpret Scripture in a way that would permit them to accept sodomy at least under some conditions.

Furthermore, without recognition of the rational, non-religious basis for the condemnation of homosexuality, Protestants are especially in danger of coming to see the issue as of one of personal faith which should not be imposed on others who do not share their own beliefs.


#3

[quote="Aelred_Minor, post:2, topic:287840"]
There is still the Biblical disapproval, more explicit for sodomy than for masturbation or contraception, and this seems to be sufficient, for the time being at least, to keep most Protestants in opposition to sodomy. However, without a recognized living, authoritative Magisterium to guide them, some Protestants find a way to reinterpret Scripture in a way that would permit them to accept sodomy at least under some conditions.

[/quote]

Whether there's Biblical disapproval of homosexuality depends on translation and belief. But in Ezekiel 16:49 we are told the sins of Sodom were actually things such as pride and arrogance and not taking care of the poor and the underprivliged. Caring for the poor and the sick I believe was a main crusade of Christ along with love. Not things like homosexuality. Peace.


#4

[quote="CMatt25, post:3, topic:287840"]
Whether there's Biblical disapproval of homosexuality depends on translation and belief. But in Ezekiel 16:49 we are told the sins of Sodom were actually things such as pride and arrogance and not taking care of the poor and the underprivliged.

[/quote]

An incomplete understanding. See below:

Jude 7 records that Sodom and Gomorrah "acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust." Ezekiel says that Sodom committed "abominable things" (Ezek. 16:50), which could refer to homosexual and heterosexual acts of sin. Lot even offered his two virgin daughters in place of his guests, but the men of Sodom rejected the offer, preferring homosexual sex over heterosexual sex (Gen. 19:8–9). Ezekiel does allude to a lack of hospitality in saying that Sodom "did not aid the poor and needy" (Ezek. 16:49). So homosexual acts and a lack of hospitality both contributed to the destruction of Sodom, with the former being the far greater sin, the "abominable thing" that set off God’s wrath.

.
catholic.com/tracts/homosexuality

[quote="CMatt25, post:3, topic:287840"]
Caring for the poor and the sick I believe was a main crusade of Christ along with love. Not things like homosexuality.

[/quote]

Because Jesus made no changes to the Mosaic sexual code, except for the strengthening of it in Matthew 5. Had he single-handedly abolished the sexual prohibitions of his own faith tradition, not a single Evangelist would have missed transmitting such remarkable and astonishing news. Not to mention, had he done so, he would have faced far greater credibility problems among the Jews than he already faced during his earthly ministry.


#5

[quote="Elizabeth502, post:4, topic:287840"]
An incomplete understanding.

[/quote]

Perhaps according to your understanding and belief.


#6

[quote="Elizabeth502, post:4, topic:287840"]
An incomplete understanding. See below:

.
catholic.com/tracts/homosexuality

Because Jesus made no changes to the Mosaic sexual code, except for the strengthening of it in Matthew 5. Had he single-handedly abolished the sexual prohibitions of his own faith tradition, not a single Evangelist would have missed transmitting such remarkable and astonishing news. Not to mention, had he done so, he would have faced far greater credibility problems among the Jews than he already faced during his earthly ministry.

[/quote]

The Mosaic sexual code did not explicitly ban female homosexuality. And that pesky English translation of "abomination" takes on different gradations in Hebrew, from, using Catholic terminology, venial sins to mortal sins.


#7

[quote="meltzerboy, post:6, topic:287840"]
The Mosaic sexual code did not explicitly ban female homosexuality. And that pesky English translation of "abomination" takes on different gradations in Hebrew, from, using Catholic terminology, venial sins to mortal sins.

[/quote]

That can be debated. However, it's kind of immaterial, because the Catholic view of sexuality is integrated within a creation-centered Order, of which God is the author, and that sexual code combines both Hebrew and Christian scriptures. :)


#8

[INDENT]

CMatt25
Re: Charity, Homosexuality, Scripture, Tradition
Quote:
[INDENT]

[quote]Originally Posted by** Elizabeth502**

An incomplete understanding.

Perhaps** according to your** understanding and belief.
[/quote]

[/INDENT][/INDENT]

Not precisely…your not accepting what Elizabeth502 wrote… is in fact not accepting the Catholic Church’s authoritative teaching and doctrine (that is what Elizabeth 502 was presenting…not her personal opinion/insight)…a significant difference of disagreement on your part…would you agree? In other words…you are disagreeing with the Church founded by Christ…2000+ yrs ago…and the Church that has taught the same doctrine on these issues for that entire period. So Elizabeth502’s voice or yours or mine…are not the “bottom line” on deciding “good and evil” on all faith and morals issues/questions…it is Our Lord Jesus Christ himself…working through his Church he founded…in the power of the Holy Spirit…leading the Pope and the Catholic Church’s authoritative Magisterial teachings … to include interpretation of Holy Scripture…when necessary for maintaining the Faith handed on from Christ to the Apostles…

For your consideration.
Pax Christi

[INDENT]

[quote]Matthew 16: 17-20 (NIV)

17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[c] will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” 20 Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.

Luke 10: 8-17 (NIV) Jesus Sends Out the Seventy-Two
8 “When you enter a town and are welcomed, eat what is offered to you. 9 Heal the sick who are there and tell them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.’** 10 But when you enter a town and are not welcomed, go into its streets and say, 11 ‘Even the dust of your town we wipe from our feet as a warning to you**.** Yet be sure of this: The kingdom of God has come near.’ 12 I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town.**

13 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. 14 But it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment than for you. 15 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades.**

16 **“Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.****”

17 The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the demons submit to us** in your name.”**

[/INDENT]
[/quote]


#9

[quote="CMatt25, post:3, topic:287840"]
Whether there's Biblical disapproval of homosexuality depends on translation and belief. But in Ezekiel 16:49 we are told the sins of Sodom were actually things such as pride and arrogance and not taking care of the poor and the underprivliged. Caring for the poor and the sick I believe was a main crusade of Christ along with love. Not things like homosexuality. Peace.

[/quote]

Matt,

In the context of this discussion, the OHCAC is responsible for the Bible, is the interpretor of the Bible and translator of the Bible and based on it's interpretation of Scripture and Tradtion disagrees with you. If Jesus is High priest and as a Christian we are all priests in Christianity and we serve the first priest. That first priest may not have said much about homosexuality however His life in no way parallels homosexuality. Celibacy would be the norm to model our High priest regardless of your beliefs and intepretations.


#10

[quote="CMatt25, post:3, topic:287840"]
Whether there's Biblical disapproval of homosexuality depends on translation and belief. But in Ezekiel 16:49 we are told the sins of Sodom were actually things such as pride and arrogance and not taking care of the poor and the underprivliged. Caring for the poor and the sick I believe was a main crusade of Christ along with love. Not things like homosexuality. Peace.

[/quote]

What a beautiful expression of love. Keep the truth of God's love coming. There are just too many people taking a small passage out of context and promoting hate and ignorance. People like this totally miss the message of Jesus and his teachings. This Coptic guy is too focused on sexuality. It is very creepy. He is focused on spilling out hate and sin this and sin that. His postings are very wierd. I hope he can learn what the Church and Christ are truely about.


#11

[quote="Lancer, post:8, topic:287840"]
[INDENT][/INDENT]

Not precisely...your not accepting what Elizabeth502 wrote... is in fact not accepting the Catholic Church's authoritative teaching and doctrine (that is what Elizabeth 502 was presenting...not her personal opinion/insight)...a significant difference of disagreement on your part...would you agree? In other words...you are disagreeing with the Church founded by Christ...2000+ yrs ago...and the Church that has taught the same doctrine on these issues for that entire period. So Elizabeth502's voice or yours or mine...are not the "bottom line" on deciding "good and evil" on all faith and morals issues/questions...it is Our Lord Jesus Christ himself...working through his Church he founded...in the power of the Holy Spirit...leading the Pope and the Catholic Church's authoritative Magisterial teachings ... to include interpretation of Holy Scripture....when necessary for maintaining the Faith handed on from Christ to the Apostles...

For your consideration.
Pax Christi

[/quote]

What I would agree to is that I neither accept what Elizabeth502 presented nor hers or Catholic interpretation or their emphasis on the matter. I've yet to be convinced to. But I assume you believe in one God and as a Catholic Christian in one Lord Jesus Christ, right? As a fellow brother in Christ, so do do I. So on that we are on the same page. But if disagreeing on something like homosexuality along our lifelong faith journeys with Him, means to you we can not worship together or be united in our one Lord, then so be it. Since I know He said He would turn no one away who comes to Him, I'll continue to find Him somewhere. Peace be with you.


#12

Most people understand that the Bible is not about sex. When people focus on a few passages, they miss the meaning of What the Bible and its teachings are all about. The few passages that some people interpret as being anti-gay is really open to debate. The good news of salvation in Jesus Christ is the fundamental message of the Scripture.


#13

[quote="Mark_poole, post:10, topic:287840"]
What a beautiful expression of love. Keep the truth of God's love coming. There are just too many people taking a small passage out of context and promoting hate and ignorance. People like this totally miss the message of Jesus and his teachings. This Coptic guy is too focused on sexuality. It is very creepy. He is focused on spilling out hate and sin this and sin that. His postings are very wierd. I hope he can learn what the Church and Christ are truely about.

[/quote]

Mark, thank you so much for your very kind words to me. I try but being human I'm sure like all humans I fail now and then. But you have no idea how much your words meant to me. God bless you and peace.


#14

[quote="jtandy, post:12, topic:287840"]
Most people understand that the Bible is not about sex. When people focus on a few passages, they miss the meaning of What the Bible and its teachings are all about. The few passages that some people interpret as being anti-gay is really open to debate. The good news of salvation in Jesus Christ is the fundamental message of the Scripture.

[/quote]

I don't expect many Catholics on this forum to agree but I agree with you that the "clobber passages" as they are sometimes called, are very much open to debate. May God bless us all as we each walk our faith journeys with Him. Peace.


#15

[quote="CopticChristian, post:9, topic:287840"]
Matt,

In the context of this discussion, the OHCAC is responsible for the Bible, is the interpretor of the Bible and translator of the Bible and based on it's interpretation of Scripture and Tradtion disagrees with you. If Jesus is High priest and as a Christian we are all priests in Christianity and we serve the first priest. That first priest may not have said much about homosexuality however His life in no way parallels homosexuality. Celibacy would be the norm to model our High priest regardless of your beliefs and intepretations.

[/quote]

Ok if that's the context but you asked in your opening post about those who "promote" homosexuality and for thoughts, so I gave mine. I don't pretend to be a Catholic apologist. I was just replying to your OP and giving my thoughts. Peace.


#16

[quote="Mark_poole, post:10, topic:287840"]
What a beautiful expression of love. Keep the truth of God's love coming. *There are just too many people taking a small passage out of context and promoting hate and ignorance. * People like this totally miss the message of Jesus and his teachings. This Coptic guy is too focused on sexuality. It is very creepy. He is focused on spilling out hate and sin this and sin that. His postings are very wierd. I hope he can learn what the Church and Christ are truely about.

[/quote]

Mark,

You must not be Catholic. Catholics do not take verses out of context, they look to the Church for interpretation. Many Protestants use the Bible alone without any teaching authority. Hate, ignorance, beliefs, thoughts all emanate from the mind. Our minds are filled with these things. To suggest that it is either hate or ignorance minimizes the possibilities of reasons for belief.

What is the message of Jesus and His teachings?

I am not sure what you believe my focus to be. This is Catholic answers, the social justice thread and all I did was post something to clarify the Church position on Homosexuality. You may think the Church is too focused on Sexuality as well.

My postings are wierd. I don't know what to do about that. Just learn to understand that I am wierd. My 12 year old daughter laughs at my thinking too...she thinks I am wierd.:)


#17

[quote="jtandy, post:12, topic:287840"]
*Most people understand that the Bible is not about sex. * When people focus on a few passages, they miss the meaning of What the Bible and its teachings are all about. The few passages that some people interpret as being anti-gay is really open to debate. The good news of salvation in Jesus Christ is the fundamental message of the Scripture.

[/quote]

Most people. Does that mean that somewhere, someone, picks up a Bible believing it is about sex?

Which passages are people focusing on?

Which passages are anti-gay?

There is no debate. The Church has teachings. Catholics don't have to like them, they should follow them...but there is no debate.


#18

You will get many responses here that are pro-gay. I am convinced that we have several sock-puppet identities to promote this viewpoint. The low post count and immediate stroking of the pro-gay posters leads me to believe this.

I have seen this since I joined CAF and I am very fed up with it. The arguments go on forever, are not productive, and distract us from our faith discussions, which of course is the purpose of these people.

For all the good CAF does, I also see that there is a laxity on this issue. Many good members have been banned, while the homosexuals and trans-whatevers keep posting ad infinitum. I am disgusted with this. Almost every time one of these threads pops up, another good Catholic forum member gets banned. It's not right.

I didn't come here to CAF to endlessly debate about homosexuality and other perversions. It is becoming more than a near occasion of sin for me, and I'm sure I am not alone. There are other aspects of Catholic Answers that I can support, but this forum is becoming an impediment to my faith.


#19

[quote="CMatt25, post:15, topic:287840"]
Ok if that's the context but you asked in your opening post about those who "promote" homosexuality and for thoughts, so I gave mine. I don't pretend to be a Catholic apologist. I was just replying to your OP and giving my thoughts. Peace.

[/quote]

Matt you are a wonderful and thoughtful person. It just seems Mr C is just trying to stirr up issues. I saw one of the previous post and they were right. This guy has some strange fixation on homosexuality. I would not bother posting on his string again. If you look at his post, it is the same old obsessive diatribe. He has nothing in his heart but cold admonishments. I think he has some kind of God complex or wants to be in the priesthood. His posts give me a feeling of repulsion and uneasiness. He just wants everyone to believe the exact same way he does. The previous post, I think is right, this guy has no love or understanding in Christ.


#20

[quote="CopticChristian, post:17, topic:287840"]
Most people. Does that mean that somewhere, someone, picks up a Bible believing it is about sex?

Which passages are people focusing on?

Which passages are anti-gay?

There is no debate. The Church has teachings. Catholics don't have to like them, they should follow them...but there is no debate.

[/quote]

Of course there is debate. Your debating right now.


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