Chat to Protestant friends

Hi All

Been talking to a friend who seems to believe in the once saved after baptism and seems to have problem with Purgatory & repentance. Any bible verses to recommend to discuss i have tried discuss with her Mathew 12:32 & 1 Cor 3:11 to 15 is there any other biblical verses that my catholic Brother & Sisters would recommend?

Also my Neighbor an Anglican Cannon talked about the Catholic Position on homosexuality as if we are prejudice against them, which seemed strange because I thought we had the same outlook on this as the Anglican and asked me about women priests in the Catholic Church and seem to have issue the last 3 popes because he consider then theologically conservative.

I understand why only males can be priests and Catholic teaching on homosexuality is there any recommended reading on this matter?

2 Machabees, 12.46:
“it is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead,
that they may be loosed from sins.”

Depending upon the denomination, this won’t help, unfortunately. This quote is from one of the books that typically isn’t found in Protestant Bibles. 1&2 Maccabees aren’t considered “inspired scripture.”

If you want to use the verse, be sure to explain that 2 Maccabees is found in the Septuagint, the Greek Bible as it was known in Jesus’ own time, and that it remained part of the Old Testament until the Protestant Reformation. (That’s probably oversimplifying the case a bit, but it sure opened my eyes, as I was told that Catholics added books to the OT, rather than Protestants deleting books.)

These go hand in hand, of course. If OSAS, then no need for repentance or purgatory.

You know, truthfully the whole Bible talks about this; picking out verses usually just causes no fruit. 1 Cor 10:1-13 is good; be sure to include the OT reference stories along with Paul’s warnings. Understand that the Israelites were God’s chosen, they were heading to the “promised land flowing with milk and honey”, these people were saved. But, because of their sins, they perished along the way and never made. While baptism saves you, our subsequent sin condemns us; which is why Paul tells us to persevere for the incorruptible crown. Reiterate v. 11 that says, “these things are written for our correction.”

Evangelii Gaudium - maybe sections 64-67 is pretty good. Your neighbor should understand that beyond any “new and improved Jesus” arguments, when the Anglicans have made decisions to depart from the traditional teachings of the Church, they have done so referring to themselves as authoritative. They have become their own arbitrators of moral certitude. Read 1 Sam 15:10-35. Here we see that Saul seems to honestly believe that his way of worship should be acceptable to God, but the truth is he disobeyed. Saul sees nothing wrong with his decisions. But read vs. 22,23 carefully, and see what God says through Samuel and what punishment Saul is to incur.

Hope you find something useful.

catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0091.html

The complete text of the Septugant is also found in the original King James Bible. You can buy complete KJVs on Amazon. A British friend told me that the complete text is the only thing you can buy in England.

I don’t think protestants willfully deleted anything. When the Catholic Church was getting started, there was no attempt to standardize the Old Testament. It was a Jewish book, and under the purview of the Jews. Early Christians just used whatever the Synagogue down the street was using. This is why there are minor differences on the OT of some Eastern Churches - the Jews didn’t have an official canon.

Fifteen hundred years later, the protestants did much the same thing - they incorporated into their Bibles whatever the local Synagogue was using. By this time, OT books originally written in Greek had fallen into disuse among the Jews (Christians, on the other hand, obviously had no problem with books that were originally written in Greek - such as the New Testament).

On Purgatory:

Matthew 5:25-26 “Settle with your opponent quickly while on the way to court with him. Otherwise your opponent will hand you over to the judge, and the judge will hand you over to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison. Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.”

1 Corinthians 3:13-15 “…the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire [itself] will test the quality of each one’s work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.”

(See John 4:36 and Romans 6:23 for what the wages are.)

Wisdom 3:6-7, 10-11 “As gold in the furnace he proved them, and as sacrificial offerings he took them to himself. In the time of their judgment they shall shine and dart about as sparks through stubble. But the wicked shall receive a punishment to match their thoughts, since they neglected righteousness and forsook the Lord. For those who despise wisdom and instruction are doomed. Vain is their hope, fruitless their labors, and worthless their works.”

If “once saved, always saved” were a reality, then Saint John the Apostle would not have written about people witnessing their brothers (other Christians, in other words) sinning in 1 John 5:16-17, because such a thing would be impossible, and praying for them as he suggests would be pointless. Furthermore, Saint Paul would not have said in Philippians 2:12 for the Philippians to work out their salvation “in fear and trembling.” And as if those two passages weren’t enough, the Lord Jesus Himself, in Matthew 7:21-23 and Luke 13:24-30, says that not every Christian will get into Heaven.

On homosexuality:
Remember that we are to love the sinner but hate the sin.

Leviticus 18:22 “You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; such a thing is an abomination.”

Romans 1:26-27 “Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their own perversity.”

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 “Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.”

1 Timothy 1:8-10 “We know that the law is good, provided that one uses it as law, with the understanding that law is not meant for a righteous person but for the lawless and unruly, the Godless and sinful, the unholy and profane, those who kill their fathers or mothers, murderers, the unchaste, sodomites, kidnapers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is opposed to sound teaching…”

And from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
Chastity and homosexuality

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,140 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."141 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

On the Priesthood
In Exodus, God instituted a male-only priesthood. He has not changed that aspect to this day. A priest acts In persona Christi capitis, which means he has the “authority to act in the power and place of the person of Christ himself…” (CCC 1548) Consider firstly, that Saint Paul in his letter to the Ephesians places Christ in the role of bridegroom and the Church in the role of bride. The priest acts in the place of Christ, in effect he stands in the place of the bridegroom to the Church’s bride. Now consider what is written above concerning homosexuality. If a woman stood in that same place, it would be in effect a homosexual marriage, two brides and no groom. And God does not approve of that according to Scripture.

Bottom line: The Church can only exercise the power which Christ gave her, and Pope John Paul II stated infallibly that the Church does not have the power to ordain women.

For reading, I highly recommend the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which has a list of Bible and Church document references for everyone to look up.

One interesting quotation is from James, which might be helpful.

Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. (James 5:14-15)

Interesting, he says that the intercessory prayers of Christians can save and cause the forgiveness of sins for other Christians. Thus, intercessory prayer, such as the prayer for the dead, in no way detracts from the unique mediation of Christ.

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