Christ v. The Church


#1

What is the best way to answer Protestant who tries to set a false dicotomy between Christ vs. Church. There are endless examples of variations on this argument like

  1. Forgiveness of Sins come through Jesus Christ alone, not through a human being (ie, a Catholic priest). Or Salvation come through Jesus Christ alone not through membership or use of the sacraments of the Catholic Church. I had the less Anti-Catholic protestants (like Family members) claim that Catholics who remain in the Church may be saved provided they have a personal relationship with Jesus but their continued use of the sacraments (as result of remaining in the Church) have no effect on their salvation. How would be best to answer these type of arguments.

#2

If we use the Sacraments sufficiently such that we die without mortal sin, then we made it, right?


#3

[quote=philipmarus]What is the best way to answer Protestant who tries to set a false dicotomy between Christ vs. Church.
[/quote]

Ummm, all over the Bible the Church is called both the body of Christ and the bride of Christ. How’s that?

As for the Sacraments, they are all supported by Scripture. The tracts on the CA homepage are great for this:thumbsup:


#4

I find that a lot of Protestants object to the Sacraments because they see the extrabiblical word “Sacrament,” but don’t understand what it is. (This is how I was)

I used to say the SAME thing your family is telling you. I said that the Sacraments were just stuff made up by the Church which didn’t do anything… I didn’t know what they are.

All the Sacraments are, are things that Christ instituted for our Salvation, that the Church decided to call Sacraments. Christ created baptism; the Church decided to say it belongs to the group they give the name Sacraments to.

The Protestants have basically the same things. They have Baptism, they just don’t call it a Sacrament. They have the Lord’s Supper, they just don’t call it a Sacrament (of course, we call it the Eucharist and it has different meaning to us, but for the sake of this arguement it is the same thing: something instituted by Christ; we just disagree about the specifics). They have confession, they just don’t call it a Sacrament (of course we do it to Christ through a Priest, but again same thing for the sake of the arguement). They have annointing of the sick (again we just disagree with them on what it actually means), but they don’t call it a Sacrament. A lot of Protestants have a confirmation. They all have marriage, they just don’t call it a Sacrament. Really, the only one they don’t have is Holy Orders, although they do have ministers.

It’s just a word that is used to refer to these things, just like Trinity is just a word that is used to refer to the threefold nature of the Godhead.


#5

[quote=philipmarus]What is the best way to answer Protestant who tries to set a false dicotomy between Christ vs. Church. There are endless examples of variations on this argument like

  1. Forgiveness of Sins come through Jesus Christ alone, not through a human being (ie, a Catholic priest). Or Salvation come through Jesus Christ alone not through membership or use of the sacraments of the Catholic Church. I had the less Anti-Catholic protestants (like Family members) claim that Catholics who remain in the Church may be saved provided they have a personal relationship with Jesus but their continued use of the sacraments (as result of remaining in the Church) have no effect on their salvation. How would be best to answer these type of arguments.
    [/quote]

How can someone read the “Bread of Life” discourse by Jesus and think that He is just speaking metaphorically?!?

Ask them to tell you what Sacrament is not in the New Testament, or pre-figured in the Old Testament and then refute them. General Questions are too hard to argue, since they can just keep dodging the point.

I recommend Tim Gray’s, “The Sacraments in Scripture” to anyone who wants to see how the Old and the New Testaments are saturated with the Sacraments.

NotWorthy


#6

I think the problem I’m having is related the Protestant view of Faith Alone. To my Protestant family, one either places their trust in Jesus completely OR in a institutional Church. My Protestant family members will try to use verses like “There is one mediator between Men and God and that is the man Christ Jesus” or where Jesus says no one comes to Father except through him to try set up a dicotomy between Faith in Christ one the one hand, and being saved through the sacraments of the Church.

Mike


#7

[quote=philipmarus]What is the best way to answer Protestant who tries to set a false dicotomy between Christ vs. Church. There are endless examples of variations on this argument like

  1. Forgiveness of Sins come through Jesus Christ alone, not through a human being (ie, a Catholic priest). Or Salvation come through Jesus Christ alone not through membership or use of the sacraments of the Catholic Church. I had the less Anti-Catholic protestants (like Family members) claim that Catholics who remain in the Church may be saved provided they have a personal relationship with Jesus but their continued use of the sacraments (as result of remaining in the Church) have no effect on their salvation. How would be best to answer these type of arguments.
    [/quote]

[font=Arial]Here’s a little scripture outline I put together to help me in such debates:[/font]
[font=Arial][/font]
Peter the Rock

Matt 16:13-21; John 21; John 21:17; Luke 22:31-32

Peter Led Councils

Acts 1:13-26; Acts 2:41 (recieved first converts); Acts 5:1-11 (inflicted first punishment);

Acts 8:18-23 (excommunicated first heretic); Acts 15; Acts 15:7-9; Acts 10:46-48

Peter generally spoke for the Apostles

Matt 18:21; Mark 8:29; Luke 12:41; John 6:68-69

Peter in Rome

1 Pet. 5:13

Apostolic Tradition

1 Cor. 11:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:15; 2 Thessalonians 3:6; 2 Timothy 2:2

Apostolic Succession

2 Tim 2:2; Acts 14:23; Titus 1:5; 1 Peter 5:1-5; Acts 6:1-6; Acts 21:8

Purgatory and Indulgences

1 Cor. 9:13-14; Luke 10:7; Rev. 21:27; 1 Peter 3:19; Matt 12:32; 1 Cor 3:15

Rom 5:3-5 (sanctification involves suffering)

Heb. 12:11 (suffering= peaceful fruit and righteousness); Heb 12:14 (holiness is necessary)

Saints and Mary

Rev 11:19 immediately precedes 12:1-5 (proving that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant and Queen of Heaven and Earth);
Psalms 103:20-21; Psalms 148; Rev. 5:8; Rev. 8:3-4; Jas 5:16;

1 Tim. 2:1-4; Matt. 17:3

Statues and images

Exodus 20:4-5 (immages and statues condemned [this is mosaic law and no longer binding]); Exodus 32:31 (Idols condemned)

Exodus 25:18-20 (The Ark of the Covenant with carved angels)

Ezekiel 41:17-18 (images carved in the temple); Numbers 21:8-9 (bronze serpent made)

2 Kings 18:4 (bronze seprent destroyed because idolatry)

1 Kings 6:29-32, 8:6-32 (Example of carvings [angels, trees, and flowers])

2 Chronicles 3:7-14 (more carvings made); Daniel 7:9 (God appeared [this allows us to imagine him]); Also Christ incarnated himself, he entered the material and visible world, making it possible for us to see him and venerate images of him.

Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 3:22; John 1:32 (Holy spirit dove)

Acts 2:1-4 (Holy Spirit tongues); Matt 2:11 (Jesus in the flesh [material] is worshipped)

Christ incarnated himself, he entered the material and visible world, making it possible for us to see him and venerate images of him.

Confession

Matt 9:8 (authority to men); John 20:21-23

Eucharist

John 6:51-56; 1 Corinthians 10:16; 1 Corinthians 11:27-29

Also read the Catholic Answers Tracts for any other concerns on the sacraments.


#8

What would they say to verses that say, “whoever believes AND is baptized will be saved” [emphasis added]

or

“Unless you eat the body of Christ and drink of His blood, you won’t inherit the kingdom of God.”


#9

Another thing Protestants don’t like is the use of matter to convey grace. For them it’s automatically “superstitious.” By extension, so is the use of a priest.

However, again, the use of matter to convey grace and power has been used throughout Scripture: Elisha’s bones, Jesus’ cloak, Peter’s shadow, Paul’s handerchiefs.

The use of ministers is also attested to in the New Testament. Peter heals a lame man in the name of Jesus, Paul imparts spiritual gifts on Timothy through the laying of hands, etc. Paul claims to be a minister of Christ’s reconciliation.


#10

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