Christ vs. Mohammed


#13

Ahimsa,

Is this a serious inquiry?

I find little to no truth.

Truth is found in God incarnate and the word He speaks. Mohammad contradicted everything Jesus Christ spoke.

If we establish truth in Christ all other truth claims are measured against Him.

Mohammad teaches that Jesus is a human being only (not God incarnate) and that he never truly died on a cross as the messiah of mankind.

If we then begin to see that those who speak against the revelation of God in Christ are truly serving the father of lies, that is the devil, we can see that there is absolutely no truth propagated by the supposed revelation of Muhammad.

This may seem harsh… But it is the only intellectually tenable position. :slight_smile:


#14

If we then begin to see that those who speak against the revelation of God in Christ are truly serving the father of lies, that is the devil, we can see that there is absolutely no truth propagated by the supposed revelation of Muhammad.

trinity1984,

The position seems to me untenable. What, for example, do you make of situations where the Quran and the New Testament contain similar teachings? The commands to be modest, and to help the poor, for example?

How do identical teachings become untrue the moment they are expressed outside of the New Testament?

Even more problematic is the issue of Judaism. Since the Jews do not believe that Jesus was God incarnate, does that mean that all of their teaching (including the Old Testament!) must be wrong?

Or is it right only when bound with a cover that says “Bible”, and not when bound in a cover that says “Torah”?

I’m not sure exactly what you mean yet, but I’d be interested in your replies to the questions above.


#15

Forgive me… I made too broad of a generalization.

I was speaking about more specific dogmatic doctrinal statements of the Christian faith.

Obviously one can find moralistic or ethical teachings that are very very true outside of the Christian revelation.

I concur on that one hundred percent.


#16

In your view, do doctrinal statements of faith take priority over “moralistic or ethical teachings”?

For example, is it more important for people to believe that Jesus was crucified in 33 AD, than for them to believe that they should feed the poor?


#17

I don’t think you understand Prophecy.

Muhammad was no Prophet; He left us with no prophecy. (Feel free to argue he was a messenger, but he was not a prophet.)

Christ, too, did not leave us with Prophecy; But He fulfilled it!

Neither Christ nor Muhammed should be called Prophets.

Jesus, on the other hand, was a prophet of love, not (like Moses and Muhammad) a prophet of active conflict, of the war-like struggle of good over overwhelming opposing forces of evil.

The thing is, though, you can’t have a prophet of love, without there first being social and political stability. Without a Moses to go to war, you can’t have a Jesus to teach peace. Without a Muhammad to take up arms, you can’t have a Hafiz to teach love.

Oh paleeze… Moses was called to deliver the Israelites held captive in Egypt.

He was no prophet at all. Delivering a message doesn’t make you a Prophet.


#18

There most definitely are prophecies in Islam. The fact that you aren’t aware of them just makes it clear that you are branding Islam with labels without actually having learned something about the religion.


Prophecies in Islam
#19

Hi pro_universal,

I’ve started a new thread because this would be interesting. I hope you can join it.


#20

Yes they do.

It is much more important to know about Jesus Christ and His sacrificial death for you.

Christianity is not about ethics/morals, its a message about what God has done for spiritually dead people. Its a message about God, we take the secondary role.

Knowing Him leads to sacrificial actions like giving to the poor… As a branch to the vine one begins to grow from Him and embodies His self-abasing attitude.

You might find that obnoxious, but it is the message of Christ.


#21

I certainly do not find it obnoxious, just unusual and to me, does not ring true.


#22

Satan called that famous fruit in the garden of Eden a “fruit”, which agrees with what God said it was.

The question is not what God and Satan agree on, but what use they put to those things they “agree” on.

God said to help ALL the poor,… Satan said to help “OUR” poor.

How do identical teachings become untrue the moment they are expressed outside of the New Testament?

Even more problematic is the issue of Judaism. Since the Jews do not believe that Jesus was God incarnate, does that mean that all of their teaching (including the Old Testament!) must be wrong?

Revelation was exposed over time, a piece at a time. Their God is indeed God, but their understanding of God (as Catholics know it to be in it’s fullness) is deficient.

Or is it right only when bound with a cover that says “Bible”, and not when bound in a cover that says “Torah”?

I’m not sure exactly what you mean yet, but I’d be interested in your replies to the questions above.

Your basic problem is the problem of discerning those who have learned the truth from those who have erred from the truth, from those who have been deceived from the truth.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai iaoe. Aloha nui.


#23

[Ahimsa;2565727]

Comparing Jesus to Muhammad is like comparing Mohandas Gandhi to Winston Churchill.

Actually that analogy is false. Both of those people are mere created creatures, Jesus is divine and eternal. Comparing Jesus to any mere human is comparing finite to infinite.


#24

It’s not a question of either or but both and. If one by faith trusts in Jesus one does live by moral or ethical teachings which are doctrinal teachings, and that consists of feeding the poor.

This is taught in Mt 25:34-40
"Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’"


#25

False dilema.

Christ emptied Himself of His riches to feed them to us.
We let this mind be in us which was in Christ Jesus (Philipians 2.5)
Therefore we empty ourselves to feed Christ in the poor.

Abstract moral precepts have limited milage. The stats comparing secular and religious charity show that.

It doesn’t matter whether Christ was crucified in 33 or 26 or 29 AD.
How the fact of His Crucifixion effects me matters a great deal.


#26

Of course it can be both and. But that doesn’t really address the point I was making.

The substance of faith is acknowledging a historical event (crucifixion) and that Jesus was God; everything follows from that. I don’t deny that Christians believe it’s good to help the poor-but you seem to be acknowleding that the core belief is in Jesus’s divinity and death, and that other things follow from it.

So I maintain the point: Christianity is first and foremost about believing a man is God, and that he died. Believing that it’s right to do good deeds is secondary too, and indeed only proceeds from that belief.


#27

Again, there is no “dilemma” or any dichotomy as I see it. I’m just pointing out that the root of Christian faith is believing in a historical fact and that God is a man, rather than believing that any number of laws are commanded by God.

I do agree that it’s harder to just believe that God commanded something and that it’s the law, period. It’s certainly much easier for people to worship a charismatic figure, and then to use that figure as a role model.


#28

This won’t fully answer you, but…

There are two verses that indicate that some parts of the Koran were abrogated.

2:106
Nothing of our revelation (even a single verse) do we abrogate or cause be forgotten, but we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof.

16:101
And when We put a revelation in place of (another) revelation, - and Allah knoweth best what He revealeth - they say: Lo! thou art but inventing. Most of them know not.

Generally speaking when two verses seem to contradict then the latter ones are taken as truer to the wishes of Al-lah.

Most of the war-like verses come latter.


#29

His actual death and rising was an act of love. Without love he wouldn’t have done this to redeem us. They are linked; the act, and why he did it.


#30

You forgot that “and that He rose again from the dead” part. It’s the punch line.


#31

Not me, but Christ in me.


#32

You are dividing “believing” with “good works” which is NOT Christianity. I submit that “Believing” is a verb not just an adjective therefore to believe is to act, to do, so it is not secondary but primary as believing and helping the poor are one in the same.
This is metioned in James 2:14-24 that those who say they believe but don’t feed

“14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. 18 But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe–and shudder. 20 Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? 21* Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23* and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

Also, James 1:27 mentions what IS true religion (Christianity)…"Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world. "


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