Christian Crusades


#1

This was put to me today and I didn’t know what to say apart from errr and umm :o it’d be great if I could make a comeback but I’m gonna need you guys to help :slight_smile:

Would Jesus disapprove of the medieval crusades launched by the Christians against Islam? Was this in the spirit of Christianity?


#2

Why do you think he would?


#3

Because it caused great loss of life/injury/suffering? :confused:


#4

Would Jesus accept Islam knowing the fact the Islam’s theology is contrary to what he teaches?


#5

I’m thinking in terms of the argument along the lines of war is wrong etc. :o


#6

War by itself that permit atrocities against the general population is never justified. The Church condemned it. In fact during the Crusades when reports of the Crusades have committed atrocities against the people of Jerusalem, the Pope decried and tell them that their actions itself was not allowed.

I like to note the cause for the Crusades was a call for help by Emperor (of the Eastern Byzantine) Alexios I Komnenos who appealed to Pope Urban for mercenaries to help him fight the Muslims.

From an article I read by Thomas F. Madden on the Real History of the Crusades states the following:

It is often said that the roots of the Holocaust can be seen in these medieval pogroms. That may be. But if so, those roots are far deeper and more widespread than the Crusades. Jews perished during the Crusades, but the purpose of the Crusades was not to kill Jews. Quite the contrary: Popes, bishops, and preachers made it clear that the Jews of Europe were to be left unmolested.


#7

Here is something to think about…
John 18:36
Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place.”


#8

OK so why did Christians fight if it’s all in the next world?


#9

Good question… :shrug:


#10

To protect other Christians. The Crusades wasn’t perfect.


#11

Very confusing :o it would be nice to have a steady argument instead of one moment saying they were justified and we should be proud of them then the other saying it wasn’t perfect :confused:


#12

Well, would it have been better for the Church to ignore the Islamic invasion and permit millions of souls to be lost to hell? Isn’t Jesus the Christ? Should Christians today simply be silent when any other non Christian religion invades and kills people who won’t convert to their religion? Remember the crusades were a reaction to the Islamic invasion, it was not a strike into Islamic countries.


#13

For the Love of God. Who are we to judge the past. I think Pope Urban II and the other Popes who called for Holy Crusades knew more of Christ’s Will than any of us who live today. The Crusades were about love. To die for Christ as He died for us! There are crimes committed in every war but the idea of the Holy Crusades was no crime.


#14

Islam spread through conquest of previously Christian lands. Unfortunately, the only way to stop this method of spreading is through armed methods. I don’t think Jesus would have liked the idea of the church being wiped out or or reduced when his orders was to spread his good news to all peoples.


#15

LOL.

[LIST]
*]1. The First Crusade was marked by repeated massacres of Rhineland Jews while those involved were on the way to the Holy Land, which even the bishops were not able to stop.
*]2. The Fourth Crusade was marked by the sacking of Constantinople & Zara - both of which were Christian cities.
*]3. When the Third Crusade succeeded in taking Jerusalem, about 2700 Muslims wered slaughtered - though they had been promised their lives if the city surrendered[/LIST]
Would Jesus have any objection to
[LIST]
*]the massacring of Jews
*]to perjury & massacre
*]to the sacking of Christian cities by Christian armies[/LIST]What do you think ?

Or are perjury & murder & massacre acts of heroic charity such as only a saint could carry out ?

Which is more Christ-like: to lay down the lives of those who have been promised they would be spared - or to lay down one’s own life for one’s enemies ?

Where is Christ praised as a model for promise-breakers & murderers ? [Hint: not in the NT]


#16

Gottle of Geer I guess you know God more than the Holy Catholic Church. I will side with Urban II, Innocent III over Gottle of Geer. “Rejoice, brave warrior, if you live and conquer in the Lord, but rejoice still more and give thanks if you die and go to join the Lord. This life can be fruitful and victory is glorious yet a holy death for righteousness is worth more. Certainly ‘blessed are they who die in the Lord’ but how much more so are those who die for Him.”

St. Bernard of Clairvaux


#17

That completely destroys the Catholic complaints against Mohammed, the figures of the Reformation, and all the great “Church-troublers” of the past.

It also knocks the bottom out of complaints against Nero or Hitler - for they too belong to the past, & doubtless had excellent reasons for the unpleasants activities that have made them memorable.

I think Pope Urban II and the other Popes who called for Holy Crusades knew more of Christ’s Will than any of us who live today.

Oh ? Is the Holy Spirit dead or retired or something ?

If we are not in a position to judge unfavourably - then neither can we judge favourably. Which makes it impossible to blame or to praise. This is downright subjectivism - which Catholics (I thought) did not like much. It’s worse than subjectivism - it’s a totally amoral position, as it implies that moral judgements form no part of Christian ethics. This totally devastates anything remotely resembling a recognisably Christian position.

The Crusades were about love. To die for Christ as He died for us! There are crimes committed in every war but the idea of the Holy Crusades was no crime.

[LIST]
*]1. Communism is a lovely idea too, but it’s killed millions. But fewer maybe than Christianity.
*]2. Living for Christ is far harder than dying for Him - and for sinful man to kill & murder in the Name of a God of Love, is no ordinary crime, but an extreme perversion of the Gospel of Christ - which is the Gospel of a Kingdom of Righteousness & Peace & Truth; not of tyranny, lies, treachery & murder.
*]3. So that kind of argument merely degrades Christianity to being yet another deceitful & treacherous - & all too obviously man-made - ideology.
*]4. Setting no higher standard for Christians than for anyone else trivialises both moral evil & Christian faith. And it is a flat denial of the words of Christ, who told His disciples that their righteousness must exceed - not match, but exceed - that of the scribes and Pharisees.[/LIST]


#18
  1. When the Third Crusade succeeded in taking Jerusalem, about 2700 Muslims wered slaughtered - though they had been promised their lives if the city surrendered

On the Third Crusade Jerusalem was not taken.


#19

Gottle of Gear I think your weak ideas of Christ “degrades Christianity”


#20

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