Christian response to Islam

I have a serious question about how a Catholic should deal with Islam. Please read the entirety before flaming me.

On one hand, Islam is traditionally evangelized by the sword. It conquered Arabia, Persia, the Levant, North Africa, Anatolia, the Balkans, and Spain. Much of the area it conquered was Christian prior to conquest. The choise for the previous inhabitants (except Christians and Jews) was convert or die. For Christians and Jews, there was a third choise; pay a tax, acknowledge the superiority of Islam, and be (very) second class citizens (but still subject to Sharia law).

Muslims practiced the slave trade in the Mediterranean Sea up through the early 19th century.

To this day they practice human rights violations that would get a western government chastised by the UN and other international organizations.

Anywhere where there is a Muslim majority, they are intolerant of other beliefs.

The Koran requires that they war with all non-Muslims. Islam means submission (to Allah/God). In Muslim society there is the House of Islam (submission) and the House of War. There are no other options. Muslims may make a truce with non-Muslims but may not make a permanent peace and breaking the truce can be by treachery.

Muslims have attacked the West and the USA by stealth and openly and ISIS has declared war on the US.

While many Muslims are law abiding American citizens and probably hate ISIS as much or more than non-muslims, a strict reading of the Koran shows what the devout Muslim is supposed to do. It sometimes seems that the difference between peaceful Muslims and redical muslims is the population percentage in the area considered.

On the other hand;
Matthew 5:39 But I say to you, offer no resistance to one who is evil…

Matthew 5:44 But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,…

There is also, however the Just War principle.


I have been dealing with this in one way or another since I came back to the Church after a 40 year hiatus. I was an infantryman (during the Cold War) and was good at my job. For those not aware of it, an infantryman is the guy who goes up the the soldiers on the other side and kills them any way he can.

I have been told that this is not a sin and that I did not need to confess it. It was even explained to me why this is so. The explanation almost made sense. It is something that I need to take on faith and I will do that.

From an infantryman point of view, the way to deal with ISIS and radical Islam is obvious; quote Arnaud Amalric at the siege of Beziers. I don’t have a problem with Islam if they keep it in their countries but if they start making noise elsewhere, nuke them til they glow and shoot them in the dark.

On the other hand (what is that, about 4 hands?) this is not a very Christian attitude.

But my whole being cries out to protect those that cannot protect themselves, my wife, my children and grand children, and others. (John 15:13)

What is a Catholic to do?

I would like to hear rational discussion.

Patrick

Ok im no fan of this religion as i have not seen another faith on this planet have so many violent terrorists than Islam. And in the Koran the calls for fighting oppose the gospel of Jesus Christ who said turn the other cheek. So while Islam claims to be a contiunation of the one true faith, i dont agree.

All that said, we invaded Iraq…a country that had nothing to do with 9-11. We killed many innocent Iraqis and call it collateral damage. My heart goes out to any Iraqi who lost a loved one over a senseless war.

In regards to the tax that infidels pay. Islam is a theocracy. And I’ve been told that the jiza tax actually exempts infidels from other taxes, and that ultimately infidels end up paying less than Muslims do. We pay taxes in the United States as well so not a big deal to me.

But the Christian population in the middle east is dwindling away and there’s no doubt about it that Islam makes things uncomfortable for those of other faiths. So they pack up and leave. They are told they have to keep their worship noise level down and in some cases cant even repair their churches. This is bullying and needs to stop.

Overall most Muslims are good and decent people. But i feel that the good and decent ones are leaving their lands. They dont want to deal with terrorists just like we dont.

I think I would start by urging you to reconsider how are you are phrasing your questions about/depiction of Islam here. This may be a useful resource as you begin: usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/interreligious/islam/vatican-council-and-papal-statements-on-islam.cfm

…You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.…

Matt 5:44

Dear Phoage,

You might want to read Hilaire Belloc’s magnificent essay on the subject. It was remarkably prophetic.

EWTN has kindly provided the full text here: ewtn.com/library/HOMELIBR/HERESY4.TXT

Hi, Patrick!

I feel for you, brother!

…let’s take the issue of infantryman… this is practiced in a time of war, correct? You do not engage in random and wanton killing just because you have the skills and abilities to do so, correct?

Jesus has no problems with you. (St. Luke 7:1-10; 8:41-56–Jesus looked into the heart of these men and did not hold their occupations against them, He determined to help them because of their comport [righteousness].) Murdering people is different from fighting enemy combatants.

…the JUST WAR

In the past (and in dark places in the world today) man used power to conquer and oppress; bands of murdering machines (killers) would be released upon the lands to be conquered, often these were peaceful people or none warring kingdoms; the assaults would be ravenous–destroying people, animals, infrastructure… the common folk would almost always suffer attacks from both the invaders and their monarchs… as the first would rape, plunder and kill while the latter would use them as shield, buffers and trade.

The principle of the JUST WAR was brought about through the Church’s effort to curtail the death and destruction that these confrontations released, specially on the poor and marginalized… the JUST WAR is a two-way understanding between warring parties…

The JUST WAR has never been about Church’s Teaching/Calling for man to go to war–rather, it is meant to limit the reasons for going to war and the wanton devastation that wars bring.

…Islam

It is in their religious book: kill the infidel (infidel means all who do not believe as they do; specially the Jews and the white ma–considered demons); it is their religious belief that killing, oppressing and enslaving those who refuse to convert to their belief is sanctioned and rewarded by their god.

How do one make peace with a people whose understanding of peace means: oppress, torture and kill those who do not capitulate to your demands?

What JUST WAR can be engaged when the warring party does not respect anything but their own understanding of justice?

The nations of the world are not blind to Islam–they are simply scared out of their shorts! They know that to eradicate Islam would take a massive undertaking and perhaps genocide as the “radicals” are not a few bad seeds but the blood running through their religious and cultural ethos. The world, even those who profess to not believe in God, are praying that Islam receives blood transfusion so that they can learn to live in peace not just peace while their number is low in a particular geographic location.

Catholics, and other Christians, are caught between Christ and the world…

Do we corrupt our children by teaching hate, oppression, enslavement, and destruction of those who do not convert to Yahweh God or do we Trust God, not only Believing in God but Believing God?:

[FONT=“Garamond”][size=]21 Resist evil and conquer it with good.

(Romans 12:19-21)
Maran atha!

Angel

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Hi!

…it seems to me that your representation of Islam mirrors Obama’s… he once stated that women in the US were oppressed so we should not be hard on Islam…

…well, even the most thick minded could understand that not having the “right” to vote vs. not “having rights” cannot, in any reasonable realm, be considered a fair comparison…

…in the US, how many people are thrown into dungeons, tortured, raped, and their property confiscated or destroyed because they cannot pay their taxes?

…that’s exactly the practice of Islam: pay whatever taxes are demanded or suffer torture, rape, enslavement, imprisonment and murder.

…not quite the same, is it?

…did you know that under the sharia law non-Muslins have not word (their testimony is always “false”) and that Muslins can impose imprisonment, torture and death under the grounds of “honor” (they can claim anything that the non-Muslins say or do as disrespectful to their god, prophet or religion)?

Did you know that a woman, even a Muslin woman, can be put to death on the word of a Muslin man (yeah they require witnesses–which man’s daughter, mother or wife will speak against a man?–here’s the math: 1 man = 2 women; further, no woman has the right to kill, torture, imprison a Muslin man)?

…are there decent Muslins in the world, men and women who have a strong sense of justice and who love and respect life (all life not just Muslin’s)? Yes!

…but these same people live under the same fears as the rest of the world… their own fellow Muslins could turn on them the second they say or do anything that opposes the hate mongers’ agenda.

So while we should understand and love all people, we should not delude ourselves thinking that the main problem with Islam is the non-Muslin’s perception of it.

Maran atha!

Angel

It’s worth noting that almost nothing being said in this thread squares with the actual actual teachings of the Church on this issue. Please see my link above for statements by the current and several past Popes regarding this issue as well as the treatment of Islam in the Catechism.

Hi!

…instead of saying it’s Church Doctrine, could you demonstrate through actual citing of text (i.e.: “Jesus wept;” John 11:35 vs. it says so in Romans 1:19)?

Maran atha!

Angel

The reference link to what the popes have said about Moslims is quite good. And I read it.

Now if you will give me references where the Califs of the Muslim world wrote of their good will toward the Pope and Christians, I would like to read that too.

Pope Francis did say something recently tho, about a nation having the right to refuse immigrants who had traditions that would not fit and fuse into their new nation who was adopting them. He also said that nations have a right to have boarders.

That’s an entirely separate question from the thread, which is about how christians should treat adherents to Islam. And on this front, the popes (and the Catechism) seem quite clear.

Islam is an evil religion as it teaches a direct denial of Christ’s divinity and death on the Cross, as well as attacking the Trinity.

However, most Muslims are not evil (particularly those in the West). In coming to countries like the US, Britain and New Zealand, they have implicitly agreed to submit to the laws of those countries. Most Muslims just want to get on with their lives and are not interested in bringing in sharia’h law.

They still need Christ and His Holy Catholic Church, however. We should pray for them that God removes the veil from their faces and shows them the truth of Jesus Christ.

Hi!

…again, what is it that “they” say?

…how can Muslin understanding (belief) of non-Muslins not be pertinent to the discussion of how to respond to Islam?

Maran atha!

Angel

You’re supposed to convert them through evangelization. You can teach them that Islam was created by the Catholic Church to reconquer the Holy Land, but it got out of control and turned into its own religion. See first link below. Some people might think this is a conspiracy theory, but if you listen to how Mario Joseph (a former Muslim Imam) converted from Islam to Christianity you might think twice. He describes how even in the Qu’ran Jesus is decribed as the word of God, and Jesus was resurrected, and Jesus was born of a virgin. See second link below. If you go on to study the Qu’ran you’ll find there is an older section and a later section, but they have been mixed together. The older section is actually far more peaceful because the goal was to get everyone to believe in Christianity (an actual peaceful religion). The later section was written after Islam started to become its own religion and there is an increase in violence in the text. See last three links. Whenever Christians were mentioned in the Qu’ran it was referring to non-Catholic Christian who were living in the middle east. The goal was to get everyone to accept a new prophet who then would lead everyone back to the Catholic Church.

redicecreations.com/specialreports/2006/04apr/catholicislam.html

jerusalemchannel.tv/koran-converted-christianity/

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_surahs_in_the_Quran
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meccan_surah
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medinan_surah

Hi

Yes I’m actually fairly well versed on the Koran, Sunnah and Sharia law. Not a fan of any of it…but also not blind to the errors we have committed as well.

Muslims here seem to assimilate fairly well. The extremists who want Sharia law end up going back to their own lands or live in a self imposed prison they have created for themselves.

And BTW, didn’t vote for Obama in 08 or 12, just to be clear…

Hi, Mike!

…I don’t read much… but my understanding is quite different… as I have learned: Islam was created by a man who took over a town forcing the people to capitulate to his “revelation;” his new founded religion called for “conversion or death.” People (mainly men) were decapitated in the middle of the day while others were forced to watch… and the conquest took off as terror and death swept throughout the land…

Spain (Islamic Spain (711-1492): bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/history/spain_1.shtml) had been occupied for about 800 years by los Moros.

The first Christian Crusade (1095–1099: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Crusade ) evolved as an attempt to regain the Holy Land from the Arab warlords who had captured it. The Muslins had been invading all lands for hundreds of years prior to the first Christian Crusade; at its beginning it was not so much religious conquest as it was simple conquest-- the success of the first Christian Crusade cause the war and wealth mongers to engage in the destructive acts that eventually led to the recapture and reoccupation of the Holy Land.

There never existed a Christian religion and a Catholic religion–the Way became known as Christianity and Christ’s Command to make disciples of the whole world lead to Christianity being known as a Catholic (Universal) religion.

Sadly, throughout early history, monarchs have used the Church as means to conquer/occupy lands; disguising themselves as Catholics seeking to convert the world they have committed atrocities against all, including the Church.

Even sadder still, is man’s preoccupation, from BC till today’s AD, with power and wealth as many have continue to bring death and destruction into the world through the guise of religion or “salvation” or some sort of “manifest destiny.”

Maran atha!

Angel

My interpretation is that Islamic refugees will one day takeover the Vatican. At that time, the one-world religion of the Anti-Christ will be ushered in. It will be the new sensation of hybridization of Islam and Christianity…Chrislam.

Hi!

…thank you for your reply!

…please understand that I was not associating you to Obama; it seemed to me that the post read as his understanding of Muslins (just poor misunderstood people); while the whole world is filled with poor and misunderstood, those who go out of their way to practice hate, death, and destruction should not be shielded with “goodwill.”

…“goodwill” will came back and bite us (it has time and again).

America, as well as many other nations in the world, have engage in such activities; yet, we must not shield ourselves or others in “goodwill” either… we must disown the practice of hate, death and destruction… no matter what its source may be.

Maran atha!

Angel

Hi!

…actually, not!

…if Islam were to take over the Vatican (as it attempted in the past where the flotilla was destroyed by the forces of nature), freedom of religion would be granted to all Catholics: the freedom to die a Christian or stand anti-Christian.

Maran atha!

Angel

Your post makes no sense. If a hybrid Christian/Islam religion is instilled by the anti-christ then surely we will be in trouble. It will come.

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