Christian unity: Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox unity possible; unity with Protestants impossible

God be with you.

I like to share my opinions regarding Christian unity. I know Jesus Christ spoke about the unity for all Christians. I know the Holy See have been working hard to discuss issues of unity with the Eastern Orthodox Church, which is likely to happen in the future. I believe the unity with CC and Eastern Orthodox is possible because both have Apostolic Succession and history dates back to the infant Church.

There have been differences ideas of beliefs between East and West. In the Catholic Church, there are also Eastern Catholics or Oriental Churches. I think the link between the East might be the moving force to unit East and West. Conclusion: Eastern Orthodox Church and Catholic Church unity is possible.

In regards to Protestants Churches or Non-Catholic Christians / Evangelicals / Born-Again Christians: I do not think unity with the Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox Church is possible. Protestant doctrines of Faith Alone and Sola Scriptura is the barrier that distance the Apostolic Churches (Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox Church). They also have the doctrine of Once Save Always Saved (though not all Protestants believe in this), and the Rapture. These Protestant doctrines are so foreign to the Apostolic Churches, I doubt that unity with Protestants is impossible. A Protestant Christians will either have to convert to Eastern Orthodox or Catholic Church, or cease to be Protestant.

Hope you’re wrong, Manny. I hope the Holy Spirit can move us together. Through Him all things are possible.

Jon

Do you think the Leaders of the Catholic Church or Eastern Orthodox could change doctrines to accept the Protestant Doctrine of Sola Scriptura and Faith Alone? I do not see that happening. The Protestant Leaders will have to abandon their doctrines completely if they wish to unit with the Apostolic Churches of Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Second, there is no centralized authority in Protestantism to speak for the entire Protestant denominations.

At least in Eastern Orthodox Churches, each have a Patriarch which governs the local or regional Churches.

If Protestants takes unity seriously, they need to speak with other Protestants Churches firsts, settle doctrinal issues, then discuss dialogues with the Catholics Leaders and Eastern Orthodox Leaders.

Protestants Leaders will have to take a deep look at the doctrines they created during the Reformation and if abandon them completely.

=Mannyfit75;5377820]Do you think the Leaders of the Catholic Church or Eastern Orthodox could change doctrines to accept the Protestant Doctrine of Sola Scriptura and Faith Alone? I do not see that happening. The Protestant Leaders will have to abandon their doctrines completely if they wish to unit with the Apostolic Churches of Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church.

No, I think that the leaders of both are currently, right now, in charity and a spirit of ecumenism and a desire for unity, in dialogue with Lutherans and Anglicans and others, together seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit to bring us together.

If Protestants takes unity seriously, they need to speak with other Protestants Churches firsts, settle doctrinal issues, then discuss dialogues with the Catholics Leaders and Eastern Orthodox Leaders.

This must be your own personal view, because it doesn’t seem to be the opinion of your Church leadership, either in Rome or at the US Council of Catholic Bishops.

Protestants Leaders will have to take a deep look at the doctrines they created during the Reformation and if abandon them completely.

You know, I had a Lutheran friend say to me awhile back that all that the Catholic Church has to do for unity is to give up their false doctrines.

It sounds like you share with him the view of how unity should come about that was practiced by both sides for 450 years before Vatican II. It didn’t work too well, did it?
And btw, it is similar to the practice between Rome and the East for 900 years. Didn’t work well there, either. The somebody has to recant approach doesn’t work. It doesn’t take into account how humans act, and it completely ignores the ability of the Holy Spirit to bring us together.

Personally, I like the new approach better.

As I said, Manny, I pray you are wrong.

Jon

Acccording to the Holy See Ecumenical relationship with other Churches not in full communion with the Church in Rome looks at the common ground that units all Christians. As far as I know the issue of doctrine is rarely discuss. However, there was a Joint Declaration made by the Lutheran Church and the Vatican on the issue on Justification. The document is called Joint Declaration on Justification: Source

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

This could be see as step toward unification, but more works need to be done.

This must be your own personal view, because it doesn’t seem to be the opinion of your Church leadership, either in Rome or at the US Council of Catholic Bishops.

My personal opinion is that the Catholic Church will not give all its doctrines,Immaculate Conception, etc. I do not think the Holy See nor the bishops in the US will give those up, nor will the Pope himself. The Church will not compromise on truth.

You know, I had a Lutheran friend say to me awhile back that all that the Catholic Church has to do for unity is to give up their false doctrines.

I have read an article about the issue on Catholic unity. Likewise, Protestants need to give up those new doctrines founded by Martin Luther.

It sounds like you share with him the view of how unity should come about that was practiced by both sides for 450 years before Vatican II. It didn’t work too well, did it?

Like I said, the CC will not compromise the truth.

And btw, it is similar to the practice between Rome and the East for 900 years. Didn’t work well there, either. The somebody has to recant approach doesn’t work. It doesn’t take into account how humans act, and it completely ignores the ability of the Holy Spirit to bring us together.

The Holy Spirit will lead all Christians to all truth. I firmly believe that Protestants will have no choice to give up Sola Scriptura and Faith Alone.

Personally, I like the new approach better.

As I said, Manny, I pray you are wrong.

Jon

What new approach do you prefer? Well, I hope everyone ends up Catholic to fulfil Christian unity just as Jesus Christ prayed for.

=

Mannyfit75;5377942]Acccording to the Holy See Ecumenical relationship with other Churches not in full communion with the Church in Rome looks at the common ground that units all Christians. As far as I know the issue of doctrine is rarely discuss.

Goodness, my Christian brother, that’s *all *they discuss. They want to come to convergence on doctrine! That is how unity will happen. What else would they discuss?

However, there was a Joint Declaration made by the Lutheran Church and the Vatican on the issue on Justification. The document is called Joint Declaration on Justification: This could be see as step toward unification, but more works need to be done.

Exactly!!! And no one said “I recant”. And no one said “You must recant.”

My personal opinion is that the Catholic Church will not give all its doctrines,Immaculate Conception, etc. I do not think the Holy See nor the bishops in the US will give those up, nor will the Pope himself. The Church will not compromise on truth.

Who is asking them to?

I have read an article about the issue on Catholic unity. Likewise, Protestants need to give up those new doctrines founded by Martin Luther.

The JDDJ did not require me to “give up” Lutheran doctrine, or you Catholic doctrine. They came together to understand each other’s perspective on truth, and came to a convergence.
We’re not ready for full communion yet, But nobody said recant. THis is the work of the Holy Spirit.

What new approach do you prefer?

The one that brought the JDDJ to you and me.

Jon

"Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” (Matthew 19:26)

You should study the prophecies, Manny, it will happen - the Springtime for the Church is coming soon!

Prophecies according to who? The Catholic Church?

I very much know about a lot of about Public Revelation revealed to us by Jesus Christ. As far as doctrines goes, I firmly believe that Protestant Leaders will have to give up the Two Pillars of Protestantism, Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide.

Those doctrines are condemned by the Catholic Church as stated in the Council of Trent.

If the Papacy changes how unity is defined, then there is some hope of reconciliation with the Orthodox church.

I am not holding my breath on that possibility.

I would like to see some solid reconciliation efforts between some of the Protestant churches and the Papacy before the reconciliation efforts between the Papacy and Holy Orthodoxy. If Rome is serious about reunion (however that may be defined) it should ratchet up it’s efforts with the churches of the western traditions.

Michael,
Guessing that you are commenting on papal primacy, it is, at least in part, a shared concerned between Orthodoxy and many of us. While I give Rome a good deal credit for its efforts in dialogue, there is also some positive ongoing dialogue between your tradition and mine. I don’t believe an end-run around Rome, largely on the issue of authority, is out of the question. It didn’t work for Melanchton, but who knows!
Just a thought.

Jon

Glory to Jesus Christ!

For the time that I was Catholic, I was always extremely hopeful of reunion between the two Churches, but then reality had to hit. In talking with a few Catholic priests about it, they said it would take a very long time. From their perspective, each Orthodox Church (there are about 15, I believe) would have to reunite to Rome individually. However, now as an Orthodox (well, almost :)) it would be much easier if Rome just united with us. I believe Ravenna did show some steps in the right direction. Vatican II sought to return ecclesialogy to a more collegial manner. After all, as Cardinal Ratzinger wrote in the '70s I believe, that Rome should not expect anything from the Eastern Churches than was in the first millennium before the schism.

But as others have said, it took a while for the schism to take place and it will take a while to heal it. :o I think there will be reunion between the Chalcedonian and Non-Chalcedonian Orthodox in our lifetime before there will be between Rome and the Orthodox. But that’s just one man’s opinion.:thumbsup:

In Christ,
Andrew

“With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” - Matthew 19:26

Maybe this explains a great lack of faith in God?!!

Maybe the shoe fits on both feet?!! Change takes joint effort.

Right. :slight_smile: You never know, reunification could happen.

Did you mean that the Catholic Church was without God before the Reformation since she could not accept as members people of heretical beliefs and it is only now (post-Reformation) that God is with His Church since she now can unite with people of heretical beliefs?:eek:

You’re making those heretics (pre-Reformation) really mad now, I’m afraid. They’ll be up in arms now , my friend, protesting against you, too!

Please explain further…

Did you mean that the Catholic Church was without God before the Reformation since she could not accept as members people of heretical beliefs and it is only now (post-Reformation) that God is with His Church since she now can unite with people of heretical beliefs?:eek:

You’re making those heretics (pre-Reformation) really mad now, I’m afraid. They’ll be up in arms now , my friend, protesting against you, too!

[/quote]

What kind of garbage is this? :frowning:

Amen, amen, amen :byzsoc:

Good points!

I also expect that there will be some very significant reunion between the Chalcedonian and non-Chalcedonian Apostolic Christians. And it would not actually involve a fundamental change in our ecclesiology.

Perhaps it would become an event as well as a model for unity and theology that other Christian groups (such as the Wesleyan/Methodists and the World Lutheran Federation) will be attracted to!

I hope to live long enough to witness some of this :thumbsup:

Prayers all around…

With all due respect, ask the person who posted why “… with God everything is possible”!

I wonder if there is really an interest in Christian unity on the part of many Protestant bodies. When you believe that ‘the holy catholic church’ is the invisible unity of all Christians you probably feel we are united enough.

Jesus prayed for unity. God can do all things. But I can’t foresee how this could possibly come about. But if we could eventually unite with Lutherans or some Orthodox churches, perhaps that would be a witness that would draw other Christians toward unity with us.

There are hard truths that cannot be put aside.
Heresy is a heresy in the eyes of the Catholic. She cannot allow it to be mixed up with her beliefs. Let them protestants explain away why they’re not! And there will be no common ground on this matter.
In the end, it’s either they reject them as well or be on the other side.
Salvation will be to those who remain and to those who do not refuse to enter…

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