I adding my last post in the other thread about apostasy/succession. What I really want to know, is how can we trust Clement/Ignatius/Ireneus, etc…those Early Church Father’s that Catholics rely so heavily upon to show that they are “The Church.” I too am looking to fill in that blank from Acts to Ignatius/Clement and see what happened w/the fall of Jerusalem,etc. What about Paul chosing Timothy and telling him to chose elders. That has a little more meat to follow a church. Any writings from that church? We know in 1 Timothy that Paul has condemned Hermanaeus and Alexander (1 Tim 1:20). How do we know Clement wasn’t a follower of them? Or that the future bishops/Popes were not who Paul was prophesying about in 1 Tim 4:1-8? We know that the “savage wolves who would come and not spare the flock” would be from among the Ephesians as Paul tells them in Acts 20:17-31. Those could’ve spread to Antioch and Rome as well. I guess we’ll never know, so the only thing to go by is how the followers conform to the teachings of the apostles and Christ. If it opposes or adds it doesn’t seem like it should be a doctrine.
Here’s my post from the other thread.
Originally Posted by mercygate
For me, there is no “dark age”. I believe the quibble was about the “dark period” between the Apostles and Ignatius of Antioch and the teaching on the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Ignatius was evangelized and taught by John the Apostle. He was in his 80s when he was martyred in 115 A.D. John is considered to have lived to ca. 90. That would make Ignatius around 60 at the time of John’s death. That is a very solid time line…Irenaeus refers to Peter having ordained Clement. It would not matter one whit whether Peter selected Linus or Clement.
This still is faith in Ignatius or Ireneus or whoever happens to be making that claim…in any case, it’s not an apostle or Jesus.
Bishops are not appointed by their predecessors. That has nothing at all to do with Apostolic Succession. Moreover, Petrine primacy is not the source of Apostolic Succession. All validly consecrated bishops trace their lines back to the Apostles. It’s more like a net than a line.
But those bishops are only given power if they agree w/the Pope so it’s really all based on the Pope which is based on apostolic succession to Peter …like the other apostles didn’t count or have as much power as Peter.
I think that you are really reaching to negate the existing evidence. Catholics understand that Peter’s faith is “the rock” – we just don’t separate it from Peter. And Petrine primacy is not “simply [saying] that they were a leader after him.” Peter is not isolated from the rest of the Church. We do aver, however, that Peter is essential to the enterprise. If you have Apostolic Succession (as the Orthodox have) and yet Peter is not in your house of bishops, then you are missing the ONE piece Our Lord Himself promised would be the identifiable ‘rock’ of His Church
So you (Catholics) are placing Peter ahead of faith. If the other churches don’t come from Peter, yet have faith than they are invalid? Common! Jesus never said you have to have faith in a group of people or in a certain lineage , etc., only faith in God, the gospel: that Jesus is from God, took the punishment for our sins by being the atoning sacrifice, and resurrecting from the dead and that we too will resurrect and live w/him for eternity in a perfect world by putting our trust /belief in him (and his message). That if we trust him (agree with him) we will unite w/him in purpose and spirit and therefore will change and become like him. That is the gospel to believe, not that we must believe everything he future Pope teaches on faith and morals and come up with a million disciples that if we don’t follow will send us to hell. This is not the gospel of Jesus. I’m getting more convinced that those first leaders really did either unintentionally misunderstand, or intentionally led others astray. It makes sense if the OT forshadows the new. The Isrealites did the same thing after they left Egypt…went back to idolatry and human ways of thinking, rituals that did not please God because they did not have faith, etc.