Christians, Muslims, and Israel

I am really at a loss of words how some Christians are united with Islam on their views that Israel performs a special type of “evil” on Palestineans. Will anyone ever consider the past ill treatment nations and religions acted upon on the Jews, wheter in dispersion or back in the land of Israel? Instead, a picture is painted in attempt to show how Israel has a baseless hatred of all things non-Israel/Jewish. Nothing could be more false.

BTW, the Jews had more than a “hard time” during the Holocaust, they were facing extinction, you know, another one of those infamous final solution of the Jews.

As for RedSoxWife, I understand you feel sincere about what you said. But I find it hard to believe that your negative view of Israel is the result of your tour guide having a rough time going through security checkpoints. Save me the details, as every U.S. citizen can be subject to this type of treatment in their own airports. Security checkpoints in general can get pretty ugly, because there is alot to look for. Unfortunately, terrorists use all means to sneak into Israel, even tour groups.

How can one take a tour of or take a pilgrimage to the Holy Land and come away with the impression that Israel is trying to “exterminate” everybody like “rodents”? Was taking a tour through the Holy Land like walking through a Nazi concentration camp? :confused:

In Israel, a Christian tourist is free to move about to the different holy sites, except for one place. Do you want to guess what that site is? The muslim controlled Temple Mount.

You vaguely point out how Israel “created situations” in Judea and Gaza and then make the specific point that is why terrorism flourishes. Unless you believe Zionism is racist and Jews stole land, the fact is Islam has not gotten over the Jews becoming a nation again in the Jews ancient homeland. They feel Israel’s little sliver of land is too much in all the Muslim nations ranging from North Africa to Iran.

The fact is Israel has Palestinean citizens. The Palestinean State the whole world wishes for will allow absolutely Zero Jews as citizens. Did Israel force and still force Palestineans to live in refugee camps? Do you know the number of Jews who lost life, property, land, and citizenship in Muslim countires when the Israel became a nation again? Do you know Israel took those expelled Jews in as citizens rather than setting up refugee camps for them? Do you know modern Israel is the only nation to bring in black Africans to live as citzens and not slaves? Do you know how many jobs Israel created for the surrounding Arabs to help them build their new country? Will Israelis be allowed to go work in a new Palestinean state? Do you know that if a 2-state solution comes to fruition, those Palestinean refugees cannot be Palestinean citizens, but must go to be Israeli citizens? Why is that? Why wouldn’t the Muslim leaders of Palestine want their own people to live in their own state? Why is it Israel always making good on concessions when the Palestinean leaders made good on NONE of them? I can go on and on, you see what Israel is up against.

I have never heard of anyone who took a tour of the Israel and came away with being “horrified”. Was it all that bad? Im sorry you feel this way.

Please, look at the past history of Jewish suffering, while in the land of Israel and in dispersion. Take note of who did what to them. Then take a look at the situation today, and can you really be surprised when Israel shows disdain?

It is surely horrible to see the death and sufferage of all involved. But the fact is before Israel became a nation again, no one wanted them there, no one blessed the idea of the Jews becoming a nation again. Add to that this ongoing restoration of the people to the land of Israel is prophesied about…

To sum up, the effect of centuries of Jew-hatred is not a pretty thing to witness. And I don’t think the Christian Gospel has any room for agreeing with Islam’s case for hating Israel’s existence.

Wow, feeling bad for the innocent men, women and children who suffer in the Palestinian territories (for surely you can’t believe that every single person there is a terrorist?) doesn’t mean that I hate Israel or the Israeli people. I feel bad when Israeli citizens die, I feel bad when Palestinians die. Since more Palestinians die each year, it comes up a bit more.

I should point out that I don’t have a problem with security checkpoints. I breezed through them in Israel just as I did in the US, with guards smiling at me each step of the way. Just because people are nice to me however, doesn’t mean I can turn a blind eye to how they’re treating other people. I even teased my husband because apparently he doesn’t look as harmless. He was physically searched in the US, England, Switzerland and Israel. It’s been something as a joke between us.

However when a soldier sits at a checkpoint with a computer open, visible to the person who’s going through, chatting on facebook, while making a person who is passing through sit for half an hour or more, you have more than just thorough security checkpoints. But really, that is just an annoyance and wouldn’t even make the list of things that bothered me while I was in Israel… unfortunately…

How could I come up with the idea that Israel would like to exterminate Palestine… the large Eastern European type walls with the squalid living conditions on the other side. The settlements creeping further and further in leaving less and less room… Having lived in South Africa I was strongly reminded of Apartheid. You say that Israel only has their little sliver of land, but the Palestinians in the West Bank seemed pretty trapped in their much smaller, barren, impoverished area.

I wonder how many tourists you have met then, who went into Bethlehem and the rest of the West Bank, because every single person in our forty person group was horrified by what we saw.

Because of the history can I really be surprised that Israel shows disdain?

Can you really suggest taking that disdain out on people who had nothing to do with it. The children that are born each day in the West Bank had nothing to do with the history that you speak of. I just don’t see the history argument. While I am very sorry that the Holocaust occurred I think that it’s sad that it’s an excuse for continued violence.
I am a descendent of both Algonquin Native Americans and slaves. But I couldn’t imagine using the past horrors inflicted on my ancestors to justify the death of anyone today.

I don’t feel sympathy for the people in Palestine because they are Muslim (or Christian, because many of the oppressed people I met were Christians!). I feel sympathy for them because they are human and are being treated as something far less then human.

And finally, I am probably not going to engage in an argument with you. I thought I would explain my entire side of it and let you know that I don’t hate the Jewish people (one of my best friends is jewish!). But two wrongs doesn’t make a right. The Holocaust was wrong. What’s going on in Palestine is wrong. Both are terrible tragedies in which innocent lives have been lost… one is still going on today… I guess that’s why it’s my main concern in this conversation…

Peace.

^nicely said.

Btw, you didn’t quote my other post-why was that? Is it because you didn’t have a response? Israelis really remind me of the school bully. They treat their victims badly and the people that are cooler (in this case whose countries they hail from are more powerful) they treat them quite well. A life is a life. Whether it is jewish, muslim, christian or atheist (flying spaghetti monster included lol :D).
But as redsoxwife said—two wrongs don’t make a right. The 6 million people (jews, homosexuals, gypsies and other “imperfect” humans in the eyes of hitler) were killed and that wasn’t right and we know that the majority of them were jewish. Is it right for the jews a few years later to inflict the same suffering and torture on the palestinians that they had from hitler?
The answer is no.

wasalam

Maybe you need to make a list of these things. Sure Israel has its problems like any other free country. But if I want to take a break from the midwest, I’ll go to Israel. Do you know there were close to 40 murders in the Chicago public school system this past year? That bothers me to no end. And yet, does Israel put out travel warnings for Israelis to avoid Chicago or anywhere else in the US? I didnt think so.

Those would be large keep out the terrorist type walls.

Sorry, this arguement falls flat on its face. Israel has Palestineans as Israeli citizens. You know, the Palestineans that never fled from Israel when all the surrounding Arab countries sent their armies to try and kill all Jews in the land. Like I said above, Israel takes Jews in from all nations, Russian, black Africans, Asian, etc. All are made 1st class citizens.

This is so beyond “two wrongs make a right”. You make a connection to the Holocaust and “what is going on in Palestine”. Are you forgetting the numerous wars of anihillation Muslim and Arab countries attempted on Israel? The PLO terrorism?
I do sympathize for innocent Palestineans, but who really has been treated sub-humanly first?

The palestinians

wasalam

Murders are a bit different from government offensives, aren’t they. I believe the US government is probably trying to stop the violence in Chicago, are they not? They aren’t the ones perpetuating it. Maybe you should go to the middle east and see what’s going on before you talk about them. It’s always good to be informed. When I went to Israel I didn’t expect to have a side. I’d heard quite a bit from both sides that seemed to be contractive, and didn’t expect to come back with such strong opinions. However when you see evil, it’s hard to forget it. What’s going on in the West Bank (I’ll talk about the part that I’ve actually seen with my own eyes) is evil.

You mean unlike the large wall that was built (and thank God torn down) in Europe to separate east from west and keep evil capitalists and spies out? It’s amazing how walls like that only seem to stop law abiding citizens, isn’t it? It reminds me far more of the South African plan to shove anyone who wasn’t white onto tiny little bantu-stans where they could die in poverty out of sight. Thank God that that too is over.

Many of the Christians I met in Bethlehem had families that went back to the first Christians. It wasn’t that they had fled from anywhere, they had been born there, were their parents, grand parents, great grandparents, going back had all been born. And they certainly aren’t treated like any kind of citizens, much less first class citizens. Again, I think you absolutely go there and see instead of trusting second, third and fourth hand accounts.

What is going on in Palestine is that people are dying. Lives are being lost. Terrorism is wrong. So are Israel’s actions towards and treatment of the Palestinian people.

And you’re statement of “who has really been treated sub-humanly first” is, well, I can’t think of a description that wouldn’t risk getting me kicked off of here, so I guess I’ll just respond to it.

You have summed up my entire argument (or the other side of it). It doesn’t matter who was treated sub humanly first. This could go on and on indefinitely, as it seems set to now, if both sides keep retaliating. And innocent people on both sides will continue to die. It is tragic that you can’t seem to see that any innocent death in this scenario is tragic, not just the deaths on the Israeli side.

I do strongly suggest you go and see for your self, since I doubt you’ll believe me. The tone of your first response was that of a man talking to a stupid woman who doesn’t know what she’s talking about, but is probably upset because she got patted down at the airport. How could one be upset about small things like that (which really are just the cost of traveling safely) when human lives are at stake. And if all human life has value, which I absolutely believe, then your argument doesn’t hold water.

Peace. I will pray for you.

206tours.com/

First, I have seen it, and believe every bit of what you have seen. Secondly, I don’t view you as stupid. In Christ’s Church, there is no man or woman, so we are equal,and I humbly say I am sorry if I offended you.

But let me back up here.

As for government offenses and the security wall. You saw Palestineans being unjustly held up at checkpoints and squalor on the Palestinean side. I saw the same. But because the wall is up, we don’t see alot of what used to go on, because the wall has distracted such acts. Acts like firing at civilians, where not only Israelis but also Palestineans were indiscriminately targeted with bullets. Yes, any wall is a joke, but look at the causes of the wall in Israel, and it is not “apartheid”. As far as them being pressed in by the wall, it is interesting to note none of the other nations around them want them. Maybe tours and pilgrimages should stop there to see some truth. Why are Palestineans forced to stay in refugee camps in these countries?

Because there is a muslin lead, nation powered plan to rid the land of Israel from Jews. The innnocent Palestineans civilians are being used as a PR ploy for the whole world to come down on Israel. The wars of annihilation did not work, so this is what Israel now deals with daily, terrorism and PR shemes to magnify Israels evilness to no end. Innocent Palestineans are kept in camps, their leaders offer no real infrastructure for them. The Palestinean and Gaza leadership make no efforts to move forward with real peace initiatives, so Israel moves on without them. When growth occurs and sttlements are built, it benefits the PA, because now the world sees “Zionist land theives” at work. There are organizations that put videocameras into Palestineans hands, then Israeli guards and civilians are poked and prodded or even caught doing bad things, then the cameras roll and the nations can see on YouTube the horrors and evil of Israel.

Then there is the movement to show the world that the only native Christians in the land of Israel are Palestineans. Not Jews, but Palestineans. Some even go as far to say Jesus was a Palestinean. We know from history and the scriptures the Jews were forced from the land. But we also know from the scriptures, that God’s prophetic Word tells how he will bring them back into the land(forever) in unbelief, where he will eventually refine a people for himself, and His Spirit put into them and look upon Him who they pierced. Jesus will turn ungodlessness away from Jacob.

The Church, who has the Holy Spirit of the God of Israel giving to us by His only Son, should realize and understand that when the Israel comes back into the land in unbelief, things are not going to be pretty. Part of the Gospel message is that the Jew can miraculously become one new man with the gentiles who come to faith in the Messiah Jesus. How does that look miraculous to today’s Israelite who sees nations trying to force them into peace with powers that do not want peace with them?

When Christians sympathize with the Islamic and worldly intentions of handling Israel their way and not God’s way, it is sad to see. These ancient Palestinean Christians should be rejoicing with Israel at her rebirth in the land. What a mission field God has laid out for them(and all Christians) to work. How can there be poverty when God has laid millions of Jews for them to reach with the Gospel?

Let me put it bluntly, the Palestineans have been taught the truths of Jesus, but have not been told the truths of Gods faithfulness to the broken branches of Israel. The Palestinean people have been lied to about the Jews and the land God brought them back into, and only the truths of the scriptures can pull them out of this one. The muslim-led PA has no real plans for the Palestineans, especially the Christians.

Jesus Christ does, in His Kingdom, in Israel, when He comes back.

We see Israel today trying all they can to sustain themselves among the nations and nothing will work. I love the Palestineans, but they need to know the truth about Israel and God’s restoration of them coming with the appearence of Jesus. We know from the scriptures the nations will try to come down hard on unbelieving Israel. Only when they all look to God by His Son, and only Him, will they succeed.

Come Lord Jesus quickly!
Peace in Christ

You know how stupid you will look if you say this in front of a Palestinian who has lost so much? (whether muslim or christian).

wasalam

Just one comment on very touchy subject:

Our Father Abraham would be appalled at all Three of us: Jewish Christian Muslim .

to the Jews, did not Father Abraham give a tenth of his spoils to the King of Peace; Melchizdek? you say that Muslims are of slaves But Hagar was set free just as you were by Moses from Pharaoh.

We as Christians are Obligated to make peace as our King Jesus is also the Prince of Peace… so why don’t we object to this pantomime that is this: “war on terror” that is just ticking off the Muslims all the more. raise a complaint to your politician! my Cousin just lost his legs in afganistan.

to Muslims, Muhammed taught tolerance of both Jews and Christians, and why say peace be only upon the dead, no! they are still alive in heaven, so peace upon all the earth also, as believers live by faith. Isa PBUH says if you are struck “turn the other cheek also”. Violence causes division.

peace is sublime.

David

it’s hard to be tolerant while your family is living under supression, both muslim and christian palestinians live under oppression, compression from all sides what do you expect other than depression?
Muhammed taught tolerance but he also taught to fight back when you live under oppression for verily oppression is worst than death.

wasalam

Take a tour through Palestinean media to show what Palestineans are indoctrinated with by their leaders.

Here also

It is God’s Word that in latter times He will(for His holy namesake) restore the land and people of Israel. The people will come in unbelief and ultimately restored fully when Jesus comes back. He spoke it, and it is happening today. To say it is not is to deny what your eyes see.

On this restoration, your opinion, my opinion, nor anyone’s opinion matters not. This is God’s Word and we don’t dialogue, change, or negotiate it with Him.

As a Christian, I offer prayers and other types of support for the Churches there in hope that the Gospel is proclaimed to the Jew first, then the Gentile.

As a Christian, I do not join in with the world and false religions to get Israel to behave their way. I support the God of Israels way of dealing with them, by looking onto Him and Him only, through His only Son Jesus, for everything Israel needs. Because Israel is led by a secular government looking to make peace with people who don’t want eternal peace with them, their prosperity will wane. Only when Jesus comes back, will they get their peace, their righteous ruler, and also will have godlessness removed from them.

As a Christian I understand through His Word that because God brought the Jews back in the land of Israel in unbelief, ugly things have happened and sadly, will happen as things escalate. All a Christian can do is pray and give the Gospel.

As a Christian, I can warn the nations that when Jesus comes back, He will judge the nations how they treated Israel.

Better now for Jews and Gentiles to believe in Jesus Christ, to belong to His Church, His Bride, to both be made one new man in Christ.

It is the God of Israel’s Word, not mine. I just believe in it, because I believe in Him and His only Son, Jesus Christ. I am not concerned how stupid I look or sound saying all this.

This was your answer to the question “Who was treated subhumanly first?”

This answer either shows a willful ignorance or an honest ignorance on your part.

You see, Israel came back into existence and wanted peace with her neighbors. But, the Palestinians, the Egyptians, Iraqis, Jordanians, Syrians and Lebanese attacked her. That was the point at which the Palestinians became refugees. Not because of Israel but because of the Muslim governments in the region.

Not to an honest Palestinian who is familiar with history.

Very good. I’ll notify the Pentagon. If Mahomet taught that oppression is worse than death then we can start a full bombing campaign with the use of chemical agents against the governments of Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iran, Egypt, Sudan, Syria and Chad. Seriously, all the population centers of Saudi Arabis are along the coast and we could take them out and leave the oil fields intact.

Or did you mean that only Muslims can fight back when under “oppression”

Hi

oppression and suppression are different.

oppression is when the weak get weaker and the strong get stronger and suppression is when although valid concerns that should be met, they are not being met.

I know more about the second one being under English rule. I have never faced oppression, the closest I come is having to put up with the Gentile media, who are often keen to disprove God’s existence to me, but I’m not interested. I’m too busy talking to Him. :slight_smile:

peace

David

yes

wasalam

Wouldn’t you fight if someone came into your home? How pissed would you be if someone kicked you out of your home and let you live in your backyard and said that they wanted “peace” with you after that? Will you say ok fine you can have my house and ill have my backyard? No you will fight. And if your neighbours find out what happened then they will fight.

wasalam

if you put a drop of oil in water, the water erodes the oil but the oil can still ignite.

I believe Israel should exist.

If I say we (Catholics) have Rome and not Jerusalem, it hurts because we know how much The Lord loves Jerusalem. but I guess while war-torn, many Catholics wouldn’t go there or be put off thinking of living there.

If I say the same to our Muslim Cousins they have Mecca, it hurts them too.

but ~peacefully suggested~ all the Jews have is Israel and Jerusalem. there loong history is there.

okay so too for Christians and Muslims.

responsibility is key to trust. Christians and Muslims are not to be second class citizens in Jerusalem, and this comes down to a theological argument that Jews do not believe either of us . so it is up to us to show them we too are from God, so perhaps we should turn their hearts to God with kindness understanding mercy and then peace.

creation wasn’t made in a day, but seven. so the more they win, the more they lose, if we are peaceful.

I’m kind-of re-quoting Jesus “Blessed are peace makers” and “the Meek will inherit the earth” and “turn the other cheek” “if a man wishes your tunic give him your cloak also”

peace

David

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