Christmas Kalenda Proclamation

#21

Please put don’t words in my mouth that I didn’t say. Thanks.

It does seem to me that there is an amount of poetry in the readings and prayers
at Mass. I guess to me it doesn’t all have to have the feel of a textbook.

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#22

Absolutely, the whole Liturgical action of the Divine Sacrifice of the Mass is a Sacred Mystery.

But I was glad when the Church in her wisdom revised this text as She clearly saw the contradiction it had with the relative certainties ascertained by modern scientific endeavor.

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#23

You interpret it as poetic license, as speaking figuratively, as the way our long-ago ancestors thought before we had more scientific evidence . . .
Really, I don’t see the problem.

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#24

But applying a historical-critical hermeneutic renders that view untenable.

In the 16th century, they literally believed the earth was literally 6 or 7000 years old.

It’s not poetry, it’s a historical chronology, and interpreting it as poetry goes against the sound principles of historical critical understanding.

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#25

I would urge the OP to let this matter go. There are obviously strong feelings about it, and I won’t comment further except to say that the unusually strong tone of the OP and subsequent posts leaves little openness to the spirit of the matter. Most, both inside and outside the Church, will not feel nearly as strongly.

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#26

Let me take a gander…

You’re a young earther who feels I’m being intolerant?

I do feel strongly about this - young earthism is a pseudo scientific cancer in the Church which needs to be eradicated.

Nothing will drive large masses of people away from the Church faster than anti-intellectual pseudo science.

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#27

I don’t really take one position or another when it comes to creationism or the idea of evolution.

Personally I would like to believe in creationism over the Earth being formed billions of years and man being millions of years old.

I also don’t take offense to what science theorizes and shows and it doesn’t really matter to me.

God can do something that in his created universe on its own would take billions of years in 6 days because he’s God he’s all-powerful he can do all things and he can work outside his created laws in which he made our universe in.

Who’s to say that God couldn’t have created the universe and everything in it in one nanosecond.

It really can go either way because we’re talking about a being that is the very essence of existence.

God refers to himself as I Am because he is…
There is no beginning or end there’s just God in eternity.

Jesus does refer to himself as the Alpha and the Omega but we know that God exists outside time which is created and that God has always existed and will always exist.

Some people get really out of whack about this stuff and think that if we were not created literally as written in the Bible that somehow it negates the existence of God and the faith of Christianity.

I think the creationist view is just more fantastic and surreal.

I think this is why so many people get caught up into this ideology because it does have a very fantasy quality to it which is why there’s so many Gnostic Christian groups out there claiming that there are Giants and other Nephilim creatures in the world.

I personally think that the ancient pre diluvian people may have been technologically advanced and what the Bible is really talking about is genetically modified humans hybridized with animals.

Scientists are making hybridizations now and there are claims that they have already hybridized humans with animals.

I would like to believe in creationism but I don’t really have a problem with the big bang and evolution and a lot of those ideas either.

I think there might actually be a chance that Bigfoot and Yetti exist although I think it’s very unlikely because great apes tend to not dwell in cold places they’re usually tropical animals.

My feeling is that for me it has more to do with trusting in God and trusting in God’s awesome power that he can do all things.

It’s not really an anti-science thing for me it’s just more that my preference is I would like to believe in creationism but I don’t discount what science has shown.

I don’t know if that makes sense to anyone or not but that’s kind of my stance on things. :thinking::man_shrugging:t4:

As far as the prayer goes I love all things traditional I like the lot in Mass, I like the Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgies I like the ancient because it connects us to the saints all the way to the apostles.

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#28

That’s A LOT to read.

I’ll try to unpack and reply to it later.

@Governator I know it will be good though… I like interacting with you. You’re neither easily offended or uncharitable… Somewhat rare for people on CAF :wink: Did I have an “unusually strong tone” in my OP?? I thought I wrote the OP with an irenic, balanced tone.

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#29

No you were fine.

I think that I have taken interesting position on these things and I get what you’re saying.

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#30

I can respect people who have doubts about the mechanisms of evolution, or even people who take an old earth creation or intelligent design stance on creation.

But young earth creation - the belief that the earth and universe are less than 10,000 years old - is literally contradicted by like 15 different independent scientific fields. Holding to the belief in a young earth is equally as asinine as holding to a flat earth or geocentrism. It’s literally absurd and you have to wholesale reject modern science to believe it.

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#31

It is and again I’m not discounting science or against science but I’m saying it’s also theoretically possible that is just what science only shows in the natural universe.

It’s like somebody being gifted with a car and they looked over the car and they would think that geeze this car would take probably a month or week to put together by hand but unbeknownst to them it was made in a factory with machines.

Since God can do all things he could have created the universe in a literal six days or a nanosecond.

So what I’m saying is that I am not anti-science but I also recognize that all things are possible through God and what our scientific instruments may only be picking up on is what would take place in the natural universe on its own.

It’s sort of like SimCity or some other computer game like that it can be controlled by the player or you can put it on automatic mode and let things run themselves.

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#32

We are called to have the faith of a child and so the way that I look at it is that yes the big bang and evolution all that stuff probably did take place there is scientific certainty that is most likely what occurred but we can’t discount either that all things are possible through God that God has no limitations.

We believe that God formed himself in the womb of a virgin and that is more impossible then the Earth being created in 6 days.

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#33

My problem with that is it makes God a deceiver and makes nature unintelligible.

If God created the earth with every appearance and evidence of it being very old, yet it’s very young, it’s gonna take some mental gymnastics to say God isn’t duplicitous…

Next, if we can’t know nature by scientific study, then nature remains essentially unknowable, and all our science - including the fruits of it like internet and phones and computers, if we don’t want to be hypocritical - needs to be thrown out.

Someone who goes out to the wilderness and lives as a hermit while rejecting science has my respect, whereas I don’t respect the person who sits there and trashes science while enjoying all the benefits of science simultaneously.

I’m not good at philosophy, I’m more into theology. A good philosopher could give these arguments in a much more erudite fashion.

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#34

Well all I can tell you is I don’t trash science and I’m not against science I’m just saying that there’s a lot that we don’t understand about this planet and about the universe and our knowledge and capacity for knowledge is limited.

I also recognize that even the Old Testament Scribes used to interpret Genesis as allegorical as did the Early Church Father’s.

I don’t think it matters either way I think people get too focused on the issue and they miss the point which is the central message of Genesis is that God created everything and he created it good.

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#35

I’ve encountered the belief, in certain fundamentalist Protestant circles, that it was Satan, not God, who deceived us by placing fabricated fossils etc around the world… at least that theory is more consistent with a God of truth lol…

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#36

I’ve heard that one before it’s a bit nutty…

It’s nutty because it’s be theologically inaccurate because the devil cannot create anyting he’s not God.

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#37

I absolutely do not believe in flat Earth that’s just kind of :face_with_symbols_over_mouth:.

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#38

And there is no reason for the fact that they believed that to bother me.

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#39

controversy-devil

:smiley:

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#40

It doesn’t bother me that they believed that…

I wouldn’t expect otherwise, they had no real reason to believe otherwise. It wasn’t until the mid to late 19th century that an old earth was undeniable.

My whole point of the OP was that I was thankful for the wisdom of the Church.

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