Christmas Pagan?

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Why is christmas on the 25th of December?

Evanescence

I happen to be one of those that believe Christ was born on the traditional Christmas day. Yes, historians can prattle on about the unlikeliness of it, and their point is taken, but in the end there is still such a thing as serendipity. That is, when those in charge set the day for the celebration, they got it right even if they were seeking to upstage pagans or even randomly throwing darts at a calender. This is perfectly reasonable to believe.

Scott

Everyday of the year means something to someone. If my birthday falls on Sept 11, I can still celebrate, because I am not celebrating the Sept 11 attacks, I am celebrating my birthday.

Christmas celebrates and gives thanks for the birth of Christ, no matter what anyone else is thinking of on that day, if you are celebrating Christmas, you are celebrating Christ.

You will not be accidentaly honoring anything else.

Candlemas (a Christian holiday) and Ground hog day (a cultural holiday) fall on the same day. But that does not make them the same thing.

cheddar

No one knows when Christ was born. The tradition of celebrating it on 12/25 is …

In 350, Pope Julius I declared that Christ’s birth would be celebrated on December 25. There is little doubt that he was trying to make it as painless as possible for pagan Romans (who remained a majority at that time) to convert to Christianity. The new religion went down a bit easier, knowing that their feasts (that centered around the Winter Solstice) would not be taken away from them.

So the holiday of Christmas is not Pagan …but like many other Catholic holidays it falls on or around a Pagan celebration/holiday to assimilate more peopleinto the faith.

We don’t know exactly when Christ’s birthday was. But Karin is right about the Romans: their big pagan celebrations were in the midwinter. It made sense to celebrate Christmas at a time when people might be tempted to take part in the various pagan rites–which were pretty bad…No, they were horrific, really…all kinds of drunkeness & immorality.
So, whether or not Jesus was actually born in December is not what was important in setting a date for Christmas. What was important was for the Christians to have their own reason to celebrate among themselves.
To me, this says that Christmas is profoundly Christian in origin. It was actually dated to combat paganism.
God bless.

I personally think that the early Christians were geniuses. They took an immoral pagan holiday and turned it into a Christian one. The traditions that you grow up with are important, they are a source of comfort and in times of stress it is easy to resort back to them. The fact that the early Christians recognized this and took some of the pagan holidays and made them holy is, to me, very amazing.

I really don’t understand why some Christians have a problem with this.

[quote=deb1]I personally think that the early Christians were geniuses. They took an immoral pagan holiday and turned it into a Christian one. The traditions that you grow up with are important, they are a source of comfort and in times of stress it is easy to resort back to them. The fact that the early Christians recognized this and took some of the pagan holidays and made them holy is, to me, very amazing.

I really don’t understand why some Christians have a problem with this.

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Perhaps because people remind them that most major Catholic holidays are on or around Pagan holidays… and they dont want to be associated with the Pagans?

To tell you the truth, I don’t really care if its pagan or not. Its still the most fun day of the year!
Those bunch of slave-drivers at the Watchtower forbid any of the JWs to celebrate Christmas, Easter, Halloween, Thanksgiving, Valentine’s Day, St. Patty’s Day, Birthdays, Mother’s Day and Father’s day because they have Pagan custums attached. Many things have Pagan roots. Toasting glasses is Pagan. If you could look at many different Pagan custums you would be astounded. My uncle refuses to say “Easter” because by saying that it refers to Ishtar, the Egyptain goddess of fertitity. He says “Ressurection Sunday” and he calls Christmas “Christ’s Mass”. he even calls Halloween All Saints Eve. I agree with Cheddar. If my birthday was on September 11th, would I be celebrating all of the horrible attacks that happened 4 years ago? no. I would be celebrating my birthday. Likewise, I could celebrate Yule (a Wiccan holiday) by burning a Yule log and eating cake, but I would say a prayer to God. That wouldn’t be Pagan would it? Sure the customs would be but I would be doing it without even thinking about that foul false Wiccan Goddess.

Here’s a good article on the subject:

www.touchstonemag.com/docs/issues/16.10docs/16-10pg12.html

[quote=Chazemataz]To tell you the truth, I don’t really care if its pagan or not. Its still the most fun day of the year!
Those bunch of slave-drivers at the Watchtower forbid any of the JWs to celebrate Christmas, Easter, Halloween, Thanksgiving, Valentine’s Day, St. Patty’s Day, Birthdays, Mother’s Day and Father’s day because they have Pagan custums attached. Many things have Pagan roots. Toasting glasses is Pagan. If you could look at many different Pagan custums you would be astounded. My uncle refuses to say “Easter” because by saying that it refers to Ishtar, the Egyptain goddess of fertitity. He says “Ressurection Sunday” and he calls Christmas “Christ’s Mass”. he even calls Halloween All Saints Eve. I agree with Cheddar. If my birthday was on September 11th, would I be celebrating all of the horrible attacks that happened 4 years ago? no. I would be celebrating my birthday. Likewise, I could celebrate Yule (a Wiccan holiday) by burning a Yule log and eating cake, but I would say a prayer to God. That wouldn’t be Pagan would it? Sure the customs would be but I would be doing it without even thinking about that foul false Wiccan Goddess.
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Even the names of the days of the week are pagan. Thursday means Thors day. In order not to be considered hypocritical a person who doesn’t celebrate Christmas merely for the pagan symbols would have to throw out the calender. What about wedding rings, they have pagan influence. SHould we throw out our wedding rings?

Most things not all things in todays world started out in the Pagan belief.

Of course Christmas took over a Pagan holiday, just like all other Christian holidays were modified from Pagan festivals and beliefs in an effort to convert more people to Catholicism. As a Wiccan priestess, I have studied the history of my faith and it’s frequent corruptions by various Christian belief-systems.

However, just because it was originally pagan, doesn’t mean that you need to avoid it! You took it over and made it yours, just as I and other Wiccans remain faithful to the orginal Yule Festival. We can both enjoy our separate versions of the holiday season without getting nasty and name-calling (re: “filthy Wiccan Goddess”). I don’t attack Catholics or Protestants, so please join me in taking the high-road regarding others’ faiths.

One of my best friends from childhood is a Catholic priest, and we often discuss and debate our separate religions with equal respect for each other’s beliefs. If we can, so can anyone else!

Blessed Be - Kels

[quote=Kels76]Of course Christmas took over a Pagan holiday, just like all other Christian holidays were modified from Pagan festivals and beliefs in an effort to convert more people to Catholicism. As a Wiccan priestess, I have studied the history of my faith and it’s frequent corruptions by various Christian belief-systems.

However, just because it was originally pagan, doesn’t mean that you need to avoid it! You took it over and made it yours, just as I and other Wiccans remain faithful to the orginal Yule Festival. We can both enjoy our separate versions of the holiday season without getting nasty and name-calling (re: “filthy Wiccan Goddess”). I don’t attack Catholics or Protestants, so please join me in taking the high-road regarding others’ faiths.

One of my best friends from childhood is a Catholic priest, and we often discuss and debate our separate religions with equal respect for each other’s beliefs. If we can, so can anyone else!

Blessed Be - Kels
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Kels-
I didnt attack anyone…then I am assuming that you are talking to me. I would never bash anyone of another faith…might not agree with them but heck they are entitled to their beliefs just as I am…and for that matter I would never bash a Pagan as the hubby is one.
-Karin

Karin - I wasn’t referring to you; I looked back at the posts, and the one I was talking about was posted by “chazemataz”. So, please don’t think I was going off at you :slight_smile: And right on for the hubby! It’s always good to hear of marriages between people of differing faiths that work out well. Tolerance is such a wonderful trait, and often lacking these days!

Blessed be - Kels

I didnt think that you where going off on me…I just thought as a poster on this thread I would throw my two cents in is all.

-Karin

[quote=Kels76]Tolerance is such a wonderful trait, and often lacking these days!

Blessed be - Kels
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I hope you don’t take this the wrong way - but I think these days tolerance equals a demand for acceptance on behalf of those requesting tolerance. Being tolerant is not the same thing as acceptance. I personally can tolerate you being a wiccan, but I can’t be accepting of it. Just my :twocents: sorry for the hijack.

Jennifer123 -

Tolerance is good enough for me - you don’t have to accept my faith, no one does. I am content as long as people can leave me ( and those of my coven) in peace to worship as we see fit. We do our best not to proselytize and intrude on others, and all we ask is the same in return. True tolerance ( in my eyes), is more the recognition of free will of each of us to choose our own path, our own faith. Acceptance from others is a welcome gift, but not required. Wicca is notorious for reveling in the differences between faiths, rather than condemning them, but I understand that this is not a universal thing amongst those of other faiths. I am just glad to come across Christians who don’t feel the need to curse and condemn me for choosing a different faith!

Blessed Be -
Kels

[quote=Jennifer123]I hope you don’t take this the wrong way - but I think these days tolerance equals a demand for acceptance on behalf of those requesting tolerance. Being tolerant is not the same thing as acceptance. I personally can tolerate you being a wiccan, but I can’t be accepting of it. Just my :twocents: sorry for the hijack.
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JENNIFER123:
First I never said I was Pagan/wiccan etc. I stated that my hubby was. Tolerance in my views is not an accpetance of anything it is the idea that if someone or something has views that differ from your our are perhaps different than you you do not hold it against them with the mentallity of I am better than you because…! Just my two cents :slight_smile:

[quote=Kels76]Jennifer123 -
Tolerance is good enough for me - you don’t have to accept my faith, no one does.:clapping: I am content as long as people can leave me ( and those of my coven) in peace to worship as we see fit. True tolerance ( in my eyes), is more the recognition of free will of each of us to choose our own path, our own faith. :clapping: :clapping: Acceptance from others is a welcome gift, but not required. :slight_smile: I am just glad to come across Christians who don’t feel the need to curse and condemn me for choosing a different faith!:yup:

Blessed Be -
Kels
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