Chruch or Churches


#1

I read something written by a non-Catholic in which the person wrote that in the New Testament the word churches is used often and that validates the existence of all the different protestant churches in the world today. I did a word search in the Douay Rheims Bible online and I found these scripture verses with the word churches.

Acts Of Apostles 15:41
And he went through Syria and Cilicia, confirming the churches, commanding them to keep the precepts of the apostles and the ancients.

Acts Of Apostles 16:5
And the churches were confirmed in faith, and increased in number daily.

Romans 16:4
(Who have for my life laid down their own necks: to whom not I only give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles,)

Romans 16:16
Salute one another with an holy kiss. All the churches of Christ salute you.

1 Corinthians 7:17
But as the Lord hath distributed to every one, as God hath called every one, so let him walk: and so in all churches I teach.

1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not the God of dissension, but of peace: as also I teach in all the churches of the saints.

1 Corinthians 14:34
Let women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted them to speak, but to be subject, as also the law saith.

1 Corinthians 16:1
Now concerning the collections that are made for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, so do ye also.

1 Corinthians 16:19
The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house, with whom I also lodge.

2 Corinthians 8:1
Now we make known unto you, brethren, the grace of God, that hath been given in the churches of Macedonia.

2 Corinthians 8:18
We have sent also with him the brother, whose praise is in the gospel through all the churches.

2 Corinthians 8:19
And not that only, but he was also ordained by the churches companion of our travels, for this grace, which is administered by us, to the glory of the Lord, and our determined will:

2 Corinthians 8:23
Either for Titus, who is my companion and fellow labourer towards you, or our brethren, the apostles of the churches, the glory of Christ.

2 Corinthians 8:24
Wherefore shew ye to them, in the sight of the churches, the evidence of your charity, and of our boasting on your behalf.

2 Corinthians 11:8
I have taken from other churches, receiving wages of them for your ministry.

2 Corinthians 11:28
Besides those things which are without: my daily instance, the solicitude for all the churches.

2 Corinthians 12:13
For what is there that you have had less than the other churches, but that I myself was not burthensome to you? Pardon me this injury.

Galatians 1:2
And all the brethren who are with me, to the churches of Galatia.

Galatians 1:22
And I was unknown by face to the churches of Judea, which were in Christ:

1 Thessalonians 2:14
For you, brethren, are become followers of the churches of God which are in Judea, in Christ Jesus: for you also have suffered the same things from your own coutrymen, even as they have from the Jews,

2 Thessalonians 1:4
So that we ourselves also glory in you in the churches of God, for your patience and faith, and in all your persecutions and tribulations, which you endure,

Apocalypse (Revelation) 1:4
John to the seven churches which are in Asia. Grace be unto you and peace from him that is, and that was, and that is to come, and from the seven spirits which are before his throne,

Apocalypse (Revelation) 1:11
Saying: What thou seest, write in a book, and send to the seven churches which are in Asia, to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamus, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.

Apocalypse (Revelation) 1:20
The mystery of the seven stars, which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches. And the seven candlesticks are the seven churches.

Apocalypse (Revelation) 2:7
He, that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches: To him, that overcometh, I will give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of my God.

Apocalypse (Revelation) 2:11
He, that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches: He that shall overcome, shall not be hurt by the second death.

Apocalypse (Revelation) 2:17
He, that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches: To him that overcometh, I will give the hidden manna, and will give him a white counter, and in the counter, a new name written, which no man knoweth, but he that receiveth it.

Apocalypse (Revelation) 2:23
And I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am he that searcheth the reins and hearts, and I will give to every one of you according to your works. But to you I say,

Apocalypse (Revelation) 2:29
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.

Apocalypse (Revelation) 3:6
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.

Apocalypse (Revelation) 3:13
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.

Apocalypse (Revelation) 3:22
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.

Apocalypse (Revelation) 22:16
I Jesus have sent my angel, to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the root and stock of David, the bright and morning star.


#2

As a Protestant, I really have to say that, since the NT says nothing about churches now, this non-Catholic is making quite a stretch.

In Greek, εκκλησια just meant a gathering or assembly, whether for political, religious, or social purposes. Biblical Greek picked it up and used it for the gathering-together of the Christians in a given city or region, and so “congregations” would possibly be a better translation than “churches” for those local groups.


#3

Sword Brethren #1
I read something written by a non-Catholic in which the person wrote that in the New Testament the word churches is used often and that validates the existence of all the different protestant churches in the world today.

What a puerile argument from the non-Catholic, as the word is generally used to denote a community of believers.

The only Church established by Christ is the Catholic Church as he mandated: “You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18).

Catholic was first used by St Ignatius of Antioch in his letter to the Smyrneans, A.D. 107, “Where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” It is from the Greek katholike meaning “general” or “universal”. Within 90 years it meant also “orthodox” or faithful to the teachings of Christ. (The Catholic Catechism, Fr John A Hardon, S.J., Doubleday, 1975, p 217).


#4

Protestants do not have churches at all, they have ecclesial communities, since they have lost the priesthood and the Eucharist.


#5

Anglicans and Lutherans have both priests and the Eucharist.


#6

Mystophilus #5
Anglicans and Lutherans have both priests and the Eucharist.

On June 29, 1998, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger issued a “doctrinal commentary” to accompany Pope John Paul II’s Apostolic Letter Ad Tuendam Fidem, which established penalties in canon law for failure to accept “definitive teaching.” Ratzinger’s commentary listed Pope Leo XIII’s apostolic letter Apostolicae Curae, declaring Anglican orders to be “absolutely null and utterly void,” as one of the irreversible teachings to which Catholics must give firm and definitive assent.

The Catholic Church does not recognize Anglican or Lutheran orders as valid.
tinyurl.com/l5l6pm6


#7

… which does not stop us from having them.


#8

Eh, those verses are largely talking about institutions. Personally, I am of the mindset similar to Tychonius’ second rule of the Lord’s Bipartite Body. I’ll give a brief excerpt with some of my own explanation:

According to scripture, the Church is the Body of Christ (Paul’s first letter to the Corinthians). Now let’s look at Isaiah 45:3-5 and pull some commentary from Tychonius:

‘For when he tells the one body, “unseen treasures I will disclose to you, that you may know that I am the Lord, and I will take you to myself,” he adds, “but you do not know me, that I am God and there is no other God besides me, and you were ignorant of me.” … Do both, “but you do not know me” and “you were ignorant of me,” apply to the same mind? “You were ignorant” is an expression used only in speaking to someone who now knows; but “you do not know” is addressed to the person who “draws near to God with his lips, yet is far from him in his heart (Is. 29:13),” even though he was called precisely to know and, visibly speaking, belongs to the exactly the same body [of Christ]. It is to this person that he says, “but you do not know me.”’ - Tychonius, “The Lord’s Bipartite Body,” The Book of Rules, 15.

Tychonius concludes that the Church is ultimately composed of both the Church of the Elected and the Church of the Wicked, which both form the Body of Christ. As said before, the Body of Christ is the Church. Tychonius does not believe that they will be separated until the end times, if I recall correctly. St. Augustine largely agreed with this interpretation with only a few minor quibbles over terminology ( newadvent.org/fathers/12023.htm ).

So to me, this is as far as scripture goes. Even then though, I don’t think it excuses heterodoxy. One ought to pursue absolute spiritual truth.


#9

Mystophilus #7
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abu
The Catholic Church does not recognize Anglican or Lutheran orders as valid.

… which does not stop us from having them.

Christ does not allow anyone and everyone to make up their own ideas and to institute them as His Truth. Jesus warned: “if he refuses to hear even the Church let him be like the heathen and a publican.” (Mt 18:17).

St. Paul says also, “through the Church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places (Eph 3:10).” The Church teaches even the angels! This is with the authority of Christ!

Christ’s Church that teaches the angels is denigrated – a type described by Christ as a “heathen and a publican” for not listening to Christ’s Church, and places himself above Christ while ignoring St Paul’s testimony. Such is the domain of selfists, heretics and outcasts. What’s genuine about that?

How strange that he should deny Christ Himself – it is clear from Scripture that Jesus established His Church on His First Vicar Peter.
**All four promises to Peter alone: **
“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18)
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
“I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven." ( Mt 16:19)
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19) [Later, also to the Twelve].

Sole authority:
“Strengthen your brethren.” (Lk 22:32)
“Feed My sheep.”(Jn 21:17).

Without the valid priesthood there is no Eucharist. The Magisterium established by Christ has ruled infallibly. The rejection of Christ’s Magisterium has resulted also in the grave Anglican errors of contraception and women priests.


#10

Uh huh, so your church says that my church’s system of authority is false, and my church says that your church’s system of authority only applies to you, and so neither comment affects the other church in any way.

Also, as mentioned before, could you please switch to using the Threaded/Hybrid mode on your viewing of CAF, or otherwise ensure that you hit the quote button on the exact comment to which you are referring? This comment of yours appears linked to Rohzek’s, not to mine. While it is not too hard to connect the missing link in a short thread like this, it just gets your comments lost in a longer one.


#11

And yet this is a Catholic forum, so guess whose POV counts for more?


#12

I’d advise care about leaping to conclusions on that: “It should also be noted that Catholics are NOT given preference because of their religious affiliation. In fact, Catholics are often held to a higher standard. As our Lord cautioned, “To whom much is given, of him will much be required” (Luke 12:48). Here at CAF, we believe that the truth will take care of itself. Our job is to reveal it as charitably as we can.” Forum Rules on Charity


#13

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:


#14

I have no idea why you think rules on charity have any bearing on determining what doctrines are true (Catholic) and which are false (all other ecclesial communities).


#15

Yay for women priest! We ELCA Lutherans have women pastors, too. :stuck_out_tongue:


#16

Well, perhaps you should reread your comment “this is a Catholic forum, so guess whose POV counts for more?” and then compare it with the quoted passage from those rules.


#17

I have some good friends who are excellent priests and who also happen to be women. The thought of them being in another church and having to live out their lives relegated to some other role because their church were willing to bar them from the priesthood for having the wrong chromosomes is one which I find quite bizarre.

We ELCA Lutherans have women pastors, too. :stuck_out_tongue:

What is the Lutheran discrimination between “priest” and “pastor”?


#18

In the US, Lutherans usually only call their ministers “pastors” both for the office and as a form of address. That is true in the ELCA and the LCMS. But I believe that in Europe, it is more common to use the term “priest” for the office, while “Pastor” and “Father” can also be used as forms of address.


#19

Mystophilus #10
so your church says that my church’s system of authority is false, and my church says that your church’s system of authority only applies to you, and so neither comment affects the other church in any way.

How naïve and dismissive of the Christ who did establish His Church and no other– on St Peter as His Chief Vicar, and of His teaching through His Magisterium.

No wonder there is no answer to Christ, but to deny Christ through the mirage that He did not mandate: “All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. [19] Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.” [Matthew, 28].

So there can be no justification for denying Christ and refusing to follow Him as He taught.


#20

So whom do you imagine to be denying Christ?

I also note that you have completely ignored my polite and very simple request for you to attach your comments to those which you are quoting.


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