I didn’t quite know, like a lot of my posts; where this should go. So I put it here. I suppose if needed the moderators can move it.
I in my years have seen things get bad enough that it sickens me. But that's nothing. It hasn't really started yet. I have heard it will get so bad the church itself will become corrupt. I have also heard the opposite. That before things get quite that bad the church will be *taken*. Whatever that means. Can someone shed some light on this for me?
It depends on what you are talking about, whether it is corruption of people in the Church or some belief you may have that the Church itself as a religion and her teachings will become corrupt or exactly what it is you mean.
That God’s religion had its share of those within it that have been corrupt, the entire Bible bears witness. In the days of Moses, just after the exodus from Egypt and at the very foot of Mt. Sinai where they were witnessing the Great Theophany of God, the children of Israel acted corrupt.–Exodus 32.
In the days of Elijah, the prophet had seen such corruption in the worship and nation of the Israel that he felt he was the only faithful servant of God left.–1 Kings 19:10.
The prophet Jeremiah, though faithful to Lord, was greatly mistreated by his own people, the Jews. His own brothers attacked him, he was beaten and placed into stocks by a priest and a false prophet, thrown in jail by the king, threatened with death, even left for dead in a muddy cistern by Judah’s high officials–Jeremiah 12:6; 20:1-4; 37:18; 38:4-28.
But in all these instances it was not the religion of the Jews that was corrupt. It was the individuals who proved false to its teachings. Did Moses or Elijah or Jeremiah give up or decide to stop worshipping as Jews because of the corruption of others, even the majority, and this mistreatment they repeatedly received from the unfaithful others? No. The worship of God is one thing. The corruption of members is another.
There is also the problem we might have when we see things change in the Church. We sometimes think that God is limited to what we understand as religious truth, that God would never and can never cross lines defined by doctrine or do something new and unheard of.
But when God did do things like this, some people protested. When Jesus spoke freely with a woman–a Samaritan woman, at that–the apostles didn’t say anything but clearly felt Jesus was overstepping boundaries. (John 4:27) At another time Jesus’ apostles felt it improper for a Gentile woman to be asking for help from the Messiah. (Matthew 15:26) And when God told Peter to slaughter and eat animals that we not kosher, Peter protested and called such things “unclean.” (Acts 10:16) In each of these cases the apostles felt there were religious boundaries that could not be crossed lest they become corrupt by doing so.
“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now,” Jesus told his apostles shortly before his Passion. (John 16:12) Worship of God was not to remain static as it had under the Mosaic Law. Things were always going to change, and the Holy Spirit was going to lead Christ’s followers into the changes if they were willing.–John 16:13; compare with John 6:60-67.
We cannot say what God intends to do in the future and how this will demand that we change our views. God may even do things that we think are corrupt and save those we now believe are undeserving. (Read Matthew 20:1-16) If we refuse to change with our merciful God, we will find ourselves outside the Heavenly Wedding feast like the stubborn older brother in the parable of the Prodigal Son. He believed his father was acting wrongly in welcoming his lost brother.–Luke 15:27-32.
God will never act corrupt. And while some people who claim to follow God may act unfaithful, this does not mean God’s Church is. We must have the faith of Moses, Elijah, and Jeremiah to stay faithful even when all around us seems to fail. And we must be ready to follow the lead of our Lord as he extends mercy to those we might even feel can’t possibly be recipients of it.
This will take courage and faithfulness and trust in the way God is leading you. Now is the time to be ready to “deny yourself” and follow Christ no matter where he goes. (Luke 9:23) God is not looking for people who complain because others around us are being corrupt or because we don’t approve of what God is doing. Make up your mind now, and realize there is no room for those not willing to be brave, for it is written:
“You need endurance to do the will of God and receive what he has promised…We are not among those who draw back and perish, but among those who have faith and will possess life.”–Hebrews 10:35-39.
But it would help if your clarified what exactly you mean and give an example.
God said during the end times, he would send the church a grand delusion, as sort of a test of the laypeople and the church leaders, the deception will apparently be convincing enough to fool even the elect (church leaders), so Im guessing, to the average lay person, its probably going to be extremely convincing, but I dont think we have any idea when or how this will play out, or what the deception may be.
Some suggest it is the gay marriage thing, but I dont think so, first, that would be too easy to recognize, and the CC hasnt been deceived by this, teaching on this is still the same, its not like they are going to start marrying gay people anytime soon.
I just hope I can recognize it when it comes, if Im alive during this time.
I’ve heard this too yes. So I don’t quite know what to think about these things mentioned in the Bible. Maybe corruption isn’t the word because as you said God cannot lie, no. We all know that. But God will test and NOT tempt. Maybe it’s like Job’s story which is quite insightful I think as to the way God works. But I have heard about the very elect being deceived. And also about a great “falling away”. Maybe that was the protestant reformation.
Keep in mind these authors were also writing about the major heresies of their own time: docetism and even gnosticism. And throughout history we’ve seen other heresies, such as Arianism and the iconoclasts. There’s been further schisms and heretical break aways. Stick with the college of bishops in communion with Rome. The magisterium cannot err in matters of faith and morals, nor the gates of hell prevail against it.
First of all, same-sex marriage has not been formally recognized by the Roman Catholic Church.
Second, we cannot live today in fear of what may or may not happen tomorrow. Unless you have been graced by God to foretell the future, you cannot know what is going to happen. And if you did have such a grace, I doubt you would be worried.
Third, while I am not suggesting in any way whatsoever that same-sex marriage will be accepted by the Church (again, let me make it clear that I am NOT doing that or saying I approve of such a thing), the issue you are dealing with is an internal one, not external.
Remember, God allowed “unclean” people to enter the Christian congregation. All Jews viewed Gentiles as “unclean.” The idea that a Jewish man would give his daughter to be married to an uncircumcised man was sexually abhorrent and even immoral (some Jews still see it that way–just go ask a Hasidic Jew about this, for example). Even St. Peter felt this way until God told him to stop it.–Acts 10:15.
“God has shown me that I should not call any person profane or unclean,” stated Peter when he approached the first Gentile who would become an official member of the Church. (Acts 10:28) Again, while not saying God will ever make an allowance for gay marriage, I also cannot say that God will not find a way to save even those we now call “profane or unclean.” If he did it in St. Peter’s day, he can do it today.
One more time: I am NOT saying that gay-marriage is going to be approved, should be approved, or anything of the sort. In fact, the issue is not really approving the marriage of gay people. The issue is if God has a way of saving even these people, would we be stubborn like the elder brother in the parable of the Prodigal Son who refused to rejoice or would we be like St. Peter who was ready to follow whatever God showed was now possible?
As to homosexuals, perhaps there is a way no one knows that only God has ready to reveal in his own time. If God declares the “profane” today as “holy” tomorrow, who are we to call it corruption? Who is the homosexual? Is the homosexual your servant? Are we not all the servants of God?
“Who are you to pass judgment on someone else’s servant? Before his own master he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.”–Romans 14:4.
You misunderstand what I wrote. I stated that I am not using gay marriage being accepted by the Church as an example as it has not been accepted and I do not foresee that happening. Because it has not occurred, I cannot comment on something that has not happened nor that I can foresee as happening.
I stated that because of what was written in post #8 about gay marriage being accepted by the Church. Again: Since that has not happened, and because I cannot foresee that happening, I could not use something that did not exist as example. That is what I wrote.
Besides, if you are so afraid of the future bringing corruption to the Church, why not DO something about it? I am sure you can. Just the fact that you have the Church first in your heart shows you have what it takes to prevent problems from starting in the first place.
Start with getting out into your community and getting to know the face of everyone, Catholic and non-Catholic alike. Get to really know people by giving up of your time and effort to volunteer to serve the hungry, help the disabled, and to meet with your clergy, Church and community leaders as well as bishops. Get to know them so you can more readily voice your concerns.
If gay marriage is a particular troubling issue for you, why not volunteer with a ministry that cares for those with HIV/AIDS in the gay community. The elderly and the disabled in the LGBT community get overlooked especially. Why start there if you have an issue with them to begin with?
So they won’t be a faceless issue to you anymore. So you can see how God loves them and how God wants you to see them as fellow human beings. Sure, you are not going to approve of gay marriage or their life choices, but you can at least show them that despite having strong convictions contrary to their views, you still see them as your neighbor and as humans made in the image of God.
Sometimes when we side with issues, those on the other side think that we are their enemies. We’re not or don’t have to be. Whatever else worries you, face it, head on. Work with it. If it is something truly evil, get help from those in the Church to help you meet the challenge. Do more than complain or write about it on a forum. Really DO something.
Whatever you do, seek to love your fellowmen and serve them as you serve Christ. Remember, Christ is not merely the thirsty and the sick and the naked, but the criminal in prison and the one who is a stranger to you. (Matthew 25:31-46) The best preventative from keeping the Church from falling into corruption is to keep yourself from being less than the very best Catholic you can possibly be.
After all, YOU are the Church. If you are corrupt, it is corrupt. If you are holy, it is holy. If you fail to serve Christ in disguise, the Church fails because you fail.