Church teaching "legitimises anti-gay bullying"

[quote=BBC News]“To see the Secretary of State take time out of her insanely busy schedule to reach out to 13-year-old gay kids in little towns who are getting harassed by their families, their churches and the little bigots at their schools, that can really make a difference,” Savage said.

Mrs Clinton’s involvement is doubly important to Savage while policies exist to prevent gays from serving openly in the military and same-sex marriage.

“Discrimination against gays and lesbians on behalf of federal, state and local governments, cheered on by the Christian right, legitimises anti-gay bullying,” he says.

What do you think? Personally I agree with what he’s saying.


[Side-note: The attitude of many people on this forum to homosexuals has almost put me off joining the Catholic Church. To me, it is close to proof that Church teaching can legitimise bullying. For example, I have seen someone on this forum who identifies themselves as “Catholic” compare gay men to paedophiles, based on no proof or experience. Just predjudice. No one denounced what that member, just made corrections to his wording and asked some very calm questions.]

I don’t agree. You obviously don’t know what the Catholic Church teaches about homosexuality.

How does

**Catechism of the Catholic Church
2358 **The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

legitimize bullying?

Thanks Phemie saved me a trip to the CCC.

I do know what it teaches. But since when did everyone practice what is preached? This forum is proof that not everyone loves and respects homosexuals.

The Church does not allow gay marriage. I actually agree with that. But that in itself is enough for many people to justify bullying.

I wonder what excuse some people on this forum have for making unloving remarks about homosexuals.

You’re confusing us with Fred Phelps. I don’t see any “unloving” remarks made here, just condemnations of gay culture, not the people. When the world tries to persuade the Church to approve of gay “marriage”, it wears some people down. A lot of us imagine that we will be impeccable saints while under duress, but alas, we are human, therefore stress wears us down. We eventually lose patience and fly off the handle.

Are you seriously telling me that no one on this forum has ever condemned gay people? :shrug:

Then you disagree with the premise of your original post. Church teaching is just the opposite of what you claim to agree with in your OP.

The fact that there are people who do things opposite of Church teaching in no way impugns the Church as you seem to believe.



Hi LemonandLime,

I suspect what you may have experienced is one of the shortcomings of the internet forum format. Namely the lack of real time communication and the lack of empathy from being anonymous and not being face to face. Sometimes people here are so dead set on making a particular point, that they forget to do so in charity. They would not communicate in such a manor if they were face to face in an interactive conversation. A good rule of thumb is not to point out another’s error or immorality without first acknowledging our own shortcoming and most importantly not mentioning God’s mercy and love for all of us.

I think I understand what you are getting at as I’ve have seen people asking for help on porn addiction get run off be people stating over and over how evil it is or how they would react (often against Church teaching) if their spouse had a problem with it etc. Unintentionally making these people seeking help feel lost and hopeless, instead of inspired and hopeful.

If you see this happening (uncharitable posts about gays or anything else), charitably point it out. These folks need correction too, they can unknowingly do a lot of damage.

What is your definition of bullying?

Do you feel it’s right to teach FOURTH GRADERS they can and should mate with anyone, including members of the same sex?

Do you not believe that homosexuals have souls worth saving?

What proof or experience can you offer that those with a militant homosexual agenda are not in fact bullying the rest of us into not only accepting, but legitimizing and embracing their mortally sinful behavior?

Why don’t you actually read what the CCC says about homosexuals and their treatment instead of relying on what a media report says about a Secretary of State?

I would never advocate taking one’s lead from Savage. I read his article on the subject and it was so filled with vitriol towards Christians that I had to stop reading it half-way through (and that never happens to me).

It’s the slippery slope fallacy big time. If we want to follow that same logic, then we could say that the Democratic party platform legitimizes the abuse of women and murder of children via forced abortion in China. Or we could say that Savage’s anti-Christian sentiments legitimizes the murder of Christians via religious persecution in Africa.

It is nothing more than emotionally charged rhetoric with the aim of bullying people to accept his own point of view (or else be labeled as “dehumanizing bigot[s]” responsible for the abuse and death of children).

I agree with whm’s insights as well. There certainly are some posters here who can let their zeal for disseminating Church teaching misguide them into posting uncharitably. But don’t let them scare you away from the Church. There are people like that in any group.

My interjection: I think this stands when referring to any group of people with whom we as Catholics must disagree–just because we disagree with them (and we are perfectly entitled to disagree), that doesn’t give us the right to be vicious, cruel, uncharitable, or un-Christian in any way. Disagreement does not equate rude behavior and cruelty in our remarks. Let’s hold fast to our principles, but remember to LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF. On the issue of the gay lifestyle, just remember that sexual orientation–whatever your view on the definition of that term–has nothing to do with the person inside. I mean, come on; isn’t that a point that we as Catholics try to make, that sexuality isn’t inerrantly a part of who you are? I don’t agree with the gay lifestyle and fully agree with the RCC on the matter, but I remember that the person and **their sexuality ** are not interchangeable.

So because people don’t follow Church teaching about treating homosexuals with compassion, it means Church teaching legitimises bullying? I think not. Many Catholics do not follow the Church’s teachings on abortion - does that mean Church teaching legitimises abortion? I’m not following the logic.

The Vatican places the blame for anti-gay violence on gay activism (see here):

  1. It is deplorable that homosexual persons have been and are the object of violent malice in speech or in action. Such treatment deserves condemnation from the Church’s pastors wherever it occurs. It reveals a kind of disregard for others which endangers the most fundamental principles of a healthy society. The intrinsic dignity of each person must always be respected in word, in action and in law.

But the proper reaction to crimes committed against homosexual persons should not be to claim that the homosexual condition is not disordered. When such a claim is made and when homosexual activity is consequently condoned, or when civil legislation is introduced to protect behavior to which no one has any conceivable right, neither the Church nor society at large should be surprised when other distorted notions and practices gain ground, and irrational and violent reactions increase.

Savage is hardly the man that should be the front man for any group.

Let me explain the reason I would not purple and see if it tracks with you lemon. I think suicide due to bullying is ABSOLUTELY terrible of ANY person ESPECIALLY a child. However why should we glorify one child when the reason that this child was singled out was that this child was acting on sin? How many children are singled out due to handicap and disability - are we being asked to wear a certain color on a certain day for them? The whole color day thing was a set up to make the Church community look uncaring towards children.

Not at all! I didn’t mean to imply that in my comment. The Church in no way legitimizes anti-gay bullying because of the attitudes of some Catholics themselves; I’m just stating that it’s important for us to treat people with love and compassion.

My comment was directed at the OP, not your post.

Fortunately, the attitudes of any number of Catholics does not equal the truth of Catholic teaching. We are, after all, sinful human beings that say things wrongly, are rude, fussy, and selfish; if teaching was based on what we thought, well, that would certainly be a mess.

*Can *Church teaching legitimize bullying? Well, I suppose it can–depending on how twisted a person’s mindset is. There are people who think that Church teaching allows for abortion or contraception or any other intrinsically bad things. But what IS the Church teaching, as she understands it, in its glorious fullness? It is something quite different that does not in any way encourage or condone bullying of any persons, gay or straight.

I know that Church people themselves can be off-putting. CS Lewis pointed out in The Screwtape Letters that this was a primary tool of Satan–to keep the Church-going person focused not on God or on the teachings, but on his hypocritical neighbors sitting there in the pews next to him, and that such a tactic would surely drive him out of the church. Don’t let this be used against you. We’re not all a bad lot, and afterall, if the teaching is true, why let a bunch of uncharitable followers get in your way of following the Truth?

I have seen little on these fourms that I would call attacks on gays, promote doing so, or suggest it’s ok.

If thses things are bullying or attacks then I guess you are right:

#1- The Bible and the church say having same sex relations is a sin.
#2- Gays should not be allowed to marry.

This is the overwhelming thought here. In addition most people here seem to agree that gays should be respected and not mistreated.

The only time I see anything approaching aggresiveness toward gays is when someone with a Pro Gay agenda comes on here and starts spounting off about how the Church hates gays or promotes violence against them.

Since never -welcome to the human race. The Church is full of sinners, if you are looking for perfection in people you won’t find them in the Church or anywhere else. So you are tempted not to join the Church not because of what it teaches - you say you agree with what it teaches…but because those that belong to it sin? Do you not also sin?

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