Clear Cut Answer


#1

Would something please give me a straight answer to the following question (I know it was mentioned other places, I just need a straight answer):

Who, When, Where, and Why gave the bishop of Rome (Pope) Authority over the church?


#2

[quote=nick908]Would something please give me a straight answer to the following question (I know it was mentioned other places, I just need a straight answer):

Who, When, Where, and Why gave the bishop of Rome (Pope) Authority over the church?
[/quote]

Who: Jesus Christ gave the authority to Peter and his successors
When: After Christ left the earth
Where: Matthew 16:13-19
Why: To preserve the teachings of christ in all their fullness, and uncorrupted from error, until the end of the world

That’s the short and sweet version.:slight_smile:


#3

Thanks for the Info, but what i really wanted was why Peter gave his power to Rome and not some where else?


#4

[quote=nick908]Thanks for the Info, but what i really wanted was why Peter gave his power to Rome and not some where else?
[/quote]

Peter didn’t give his power to the church at Rome; Christ gave His special grace, protection and authority to the entire Church, with Peter at its helm.

Why Rome? Because Peter was ***in ***Rome and was martyred there. Like the authority to forgive sins conferred on Easter night in the Gospel of John, the consolidation of Apostolic authority in Peter is something that must continue if the Church is to continue in the way established by Christ.

P.S. In reference to the the post above, Mt 16:13-19 occurs before the Crucifixion. The transmission of the Apostolic gift on Easter night is after the Resurrection.


#5

[quote=mercygate]P.S. In reference to the the post above, Mt 16:13-19 occurs before the Crucifixion. The transmission of the Apostolic gift on Easter night is after the Resurrection.
[/quote]

Yes, I understand this. However, the original poster seemed to me to be asking where in the Bible does it name Peter as the head of the church on earth. Or atleast, that is how I understood the question. Peter did not become the head of the Church at that point because Christ was still on earth and instructing the disciples. It was after Christ departed from the earth that Peter was the looked to as heading God’s Church on earth.
God bless.


#6

[quote=Tietjen]Yes, I understand this. However, the original poster seemed to me to be asking where in the Bible does it name Peter as the head of the church on earth. Or atleast, that is how I understood the question. Peter did not become the head of the Church at that point because Christ was still on earth and instructing the disciples. It was after Christ departed from the earth that Peter was the looked to as heading God’s Church on earth.
God bless.
[/quote]

Gotcha, Tietjen – I read “After Christ left the earth” followed by Mt. 16:13-19 as sequential. I need to be more careful. :o


#7

[quote=mercygate]Peter didn’t give his power to the church at Rome; Christ gave His special grace, protection and authority to the entire Church, with Peter at its helm.

Why Rome? Because Peter was ***in ***Rome and was martyred there. Like the authority to forgive sins conferred on Easter night in the Gospel of John, the consolidation of Apostolic authority in Peter is something that must continue if the Church is to continue in the way established by Christ.

P.S. In reference to the the post above, Mt 16:13-19 occurs before the Crucifixion. The transmission of the Apostolic gift on Easter night is after the Resurrection.
[/quote]

Correct me If I’m wrong, but you are saying that Peter had the power to give it to anyone, but since he was killed in Rome, he decided to leave it there? Does this mean that any of the current Popes Today could also give the power elsewere? Please forgive my ignorance.


#8

[quote=nick908]Correct me If I’m wrong, but you are saying that Peter had the power to give it to anyone, but since he was killed in Rome, he decided to leave it there? Does this mean that any of the current Popes Today could also give the power elsewere? Please forgive my ignorance.
[/quote]

Peter’s power was given to him by Christ – therefore he held it personally. His successors derive their power through Peter.

Yes, a Pope could move from Rome and still be Pope (at one time the Papacy was at Avignon, in France.) But Popes must be elected and consecrated as successors to Peter. The Popes at Avignon were still consecrated as Bishops of Rome.


#9

[quote=nick908]Correct me If I’m wrong, but you are saying that Peter had the power to give it to anyone, but since he was killed in Rome, he decided to leave it there? Does this mean that any of the current Popes Today could also give the power elsewere? Please forgive my ignorance.
[/quote]

The College of Cardinals elects the Pope. It is the duly elected successor of Peter who holds the privilege. Since Peter was the bishop of Rome, the Bishop of Rome holds the privilege. During the 70-year “Babylonian Captivity,” the legitimate Pope resided in Avignon, France. The duly elected popes of that period were still “Bishops of Rome” – but they were not in the city of Rome itself because of political exigencies. The pope does not confer the privilege/authority (the use of the word “power” tends to be somewhat misleading), it is conferred upon the pope.

Does that help?


#10

[quote=nick908]Correct me If I’m wrong, but you are saying that Peter had the power to give it to anyone, but since he was killed in Rome, he decided to leave it there? Does this mean that any of the current Popes Today could also give the power elsewere? Please forgive my ignorance.
[/quote]

The See of Peter doesn’t have to reside at Rome. It could reside anywhere; like Avignon, France for example.


#11

A little bit… still a little confused, but thank you for your time :).


#12

[quote=nick908]A little bit… still a little confused, but thank you for your time :).
[/quote]

What are you still confused about?


#13

Ok, I know u have answered this, but I’m a little dense on the subject. I’ve been far away from God for a long time and really am now learning about my faith.

Well, in simpliest possible terms, how is the next Pope Chosen? Also, could the Pope move the center of Catholic Worship somewhere else, as Peter moved it to Rome?


#14

[quote=nick908]Ok, I know u have answered this, but I’m a little dense on the subject. I’ve been far away from God for a long time and really am now learning about my faith.

Well, in simpliest possible terms, how is the next Pope Chosen? Also, could the Pope move the center of Catholic Worship somewhere else, as Peter moved it to Rome?
[/quote]

As stated above by several posters: the Pope is elected by the College of Cardinals.

Yes, the operating center could move to another place (as mentioned by others) – and in fact, it has resided elsewhere at times. Papal authority is a divine gift, not a geographical one. The “Pope” is the successor of Peter. Even if Rome were obliterated by nuclear attack, if the cardinals of the world elected a successor to the Chair of Peter and moved the operating headquarters to New York, that man would be the Pope – and likely be called “the Bishop of Rome” because the reason for not being physically in Rome would lie in the impossibility of residing there.

Just to be a little cocky: “The center of Catholic worship” is on every altar of every Church in the world when the Priest celebrates the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.


#15

[quote=nick908]Ok, I know u have answered this, but I’m a little dense on the subject. I’ve been far away from God for a long time and really am now learning about my faith.

Well, in simpliest possible terms, how is the next Pope Chosen? Also, could the Pope move the center of Catholic Worship somewhere else, as Peter moved it to Rome?
[/quote]

The Pope is elected by the College of Cardinals (Cardinals are Bishops with special status). The electors include not just Cardinals but also certain Bishops and prelates with electoral status.

The conclave (the election process) begins with prayer and meditation. There is a special period where the electors pray for guidance from the Holy Spirit, and a pause where any elector who is moved by the Spirit may speak up. From that, they proceed to a normal process of nominations and balloting.

There are several ancient customs which are followed – not because they affect the validity, but out of respect for custom. For example, the conclave is sealed in – they can’t leave until they elect a new Pope. Another custom is that the ballots are burned mixed with damp straw – producing black smoke – until a Pope is chosen. Then the ballots are burned without the straw, producing white smoke – this is the signal to the outside world that we have a new Pope.

As has been pointed out, “the Center of Catholic Worship” is the altar in each Catholic church (more specifically, the tabernacle, where the Host resides.)

The administrative center of the Catholic Church is in Rome, but could be anywhere.


#16

[quote=mercygate]The College of Cardinals elects the Pope. It is the duly elected successor of Peter who holds the privilege. … The pope does not confer the privilege/authority (the use of the word “power” tends to be somewhat misleading), it is conferred upon the pope.
[/quote]

Peter was appointed by Jesus (who, of course, had the authority to do so), not elected by the other disciples. How did Linus actually obtain the key’s to the Kingdom of heaven if it was not passed directly from Peter? How have subsequent popes obtained the keys if not passed directly from the one previously holding them? With the casting of votes by others who do not possess these keys, it is merely a democratic election and a succession of leaders, much like our presidents. How is this a succession and transfer of spiritual authority in the sense that it is implied?


#17

[quote=petra]Peter was appointed by Jesus (who, of course, had the authority to do so), not elected by the other disciples. How did Linus actually obtain the key’s to the Kingdom of heaven if it was not passed directly from Peter? How have subsequent popes obtained the keys if not passed directly from the one previously holding them? With the casting of votes by others who do not possess these keys, it is merely a democratic election and a succession of leaders, much like our presidents. How is this a succession and transfer of spiritual authority in the sense that it is implied?
[/quote]

It could be said that ‘between popes’ the keys are idle – and they are. No decisions or actions which require papal endorsement are made during the interim.


#18

My friend,

Do yourself a BIG favor right now. Go order the book: “POPE FICTION”… and one even better for your questions… “Jesus, Peter and the Keys.”

amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0964261006/qid=1112037462/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/002-5847209-7275238

amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1882972546/qid=1112037406/sr=8-10/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i10_xgl14/002-5847209-7275238?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

You seem to be stumbling over the city of ROME. Rome is NOT the important part. Like you have been told, Peter HAPPENED to be in Rome.

Jesus told Peter AFTER… “feed my sheep” 3 times.
He clearly left behind a Church that was to be guided by the Holy Spirit. This Chruch was to have a magesterium… some order to it.

You may also want to read the book: “Four Witnesses”

This book looks at the writings and lives of those RIGHT AFTER the Apostles. Amazing, amazing book. The epistles written by these folks clearly shows the importance of this “head bishop” we today call the Pope.

The answers are there. Go get those books. Especially “Jesus, Peter, and the Keys.”


#19

[quote=mercygate]It could be said that ‘between popes’ the keys are idle – and they are. No decisions or actions which require papal endorsement are made during the interim.
[/quote]

The traditional announcement of the death of a Pope is “Sede vacante,” “The Seat (of Peter) is empty.”

It is from this phrase those neo-Protestant whack-jobs, the sede vacantists, take their name.


#20

[quote=petra]Peter was appointed by Jesus (who, of course, had the authority to do so), not elected by the other disciples. How did Linus actually obtain the key’s to the Kingdom of heaven if it was not passed directly from Peter? How have subsequent popes obtained the keys if not passed directly from the one previously holding them? With the casting of votes by others who do not possess these keys, it is merely a democratic election and a succession of leaders, much like our presidents. How is this a succession and transfer of spiritual authority in the sense that it is implied?
[/quote]

Read Acts: 1,15-26

15 During those days Peter stood up in the midst of the brothers (there was a group of about one hundred and twenty persons in the one place). He said, 16 “My brothers, the scripture had to be fulfilled which the holy Spirit spoke beforehand through the mouth of David, concerning Judas, who was the guide for those who arrested Jesus. 17 He was numbered among us and was allotted a share in this ministry. 18 He bought a parcel of land with the wages of his iniquity, and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle, and all his insides spilled out. 19 This became known to everyone who lived in Jerusalem, so that the parcel of land was called in their language ‘Akeldama,’ that is, Field of Blood. 20 For it is written in the Book of Psalms: ‘Let his encampment become desolate, and may no one dwell in it.’ And: ‘May another take his office.’ 21 Therefore, it is necessary that one of the men who accompanied us the whole time the Lord Jesus came and went among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John until the day on which he was taken up from us, become with us a witness to his resurrection.” 23 So they proposed two, Joseph called Barsabbas, who was also known as Justus, and Matthias. 24 Then they prayed, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen 25 to take the place in this apostolic ministry from which Judas turned away to go to his own place.” 26 Then they gave lots to them, and the lot fell upon Matthias, and he was counted with the eleven apostles. Very clearly, the Apostles had the power to pass on their authority. Now, Peter was the Rock on which the Church was built. To Peter were given the keys of stewardship. And the need for the authority of Peter to be with the Church for all time is clearly seen when you see how Protestantism has fragmented and re-fragmented (to the point where there are some 33,000 separate sects in the US alone.)

When Peter was martyred at Rome, his power and authority devolved on his successor. There is little doubt that Linus was Peter’s choice – even Clement, the 4th Pope tells us how he also was selected by Peter.

So Peter’s first three successors (Linus, Anencletus and Clement) were all men personally selected and taught by Peter.

The point of this is Popes don’t come out of nowhere – they are men who have long histories of service to the Church, just as Linus, Anencletus and Clement had.


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