Come See the Place Where He Lay...and Hear


#1

The Bible tells us about what it was we were created for and how it is we communicate.

In many and various ways God has spoken...sound

Come see the place...sight

There are many other examples of the use of our senses for taking in the world and communicaion in the Bible.

All Christians believe that they are created in the image an likeness of God. All humans define the world by use of the senses, Visual, Auditory, Kinesthetic, Olfactory and Gustatory. We communicate by use of Visual, Auditory and Kinesthetic.

Catholic Christian worship Auditory (song, prayer, reading, listening), Olfactory(incense), Kinethetic (sign cross, holding hands, etc).

Protestants of past ages resisted Visual representation, ie Icons and yet the need to satisfy the humanity of which they were created seeps through in many different forms. The Christian flag and Paintings include a few.

A flag is a symbol, standard, signal, or emblem, marking device, something of allegiance…

What is the purpose of a flag?

What does a flag represent?

Is a flag an Icon?

I found this concerning the "Christian flag"

christianitytoday.com/ch/asktheexpert/jul13.html

Do you know the history of the Christian flag? I have seen it for years and pledged allegiance to it, but I do not know its history.

The first pledge to the Christian flag was written by Methodist pastor Lynn Harold Hough, who heard Diffendorfer's flag presentation at a rally. Hough, a liberal, wrote a fairly broad pledge: "I pledge allegiance to my flag and the Savior for whose kingdom it stands; one brotherhood uniting all mankind in service and love." Conservative churches generally use a more detailed version: "I pledge allegiance to the Christian flag, and to the Savior for whose kingdom it stands; one Savior, crucified, risen, and coming again with life and liberty to all who believe."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Flag

The Christian Flag was first conceived on September 26, 1897, at Brighton Chapel on Coney Island in Brooklyn, New York in the United States. The superintendent of a Sunday school, Charles C. Overton, was forced to give an impromptu lecture to the gathered students, because the scheduled speaker had failed to arrive for the event. Overton saw a flag of the United States in the front of the chapel (a common custom in many American churches). Drawing on the flag for inspiration, he gave a speech asking the students what a flag representing Christianity would look like.

Overton thought about his improvised speech for many years afterward. In 1907, he and Ralph Diffendorfer, secretary of the Methodist Young People's Missionary Movement, designed and began promoting the flag.

I then found this concerning Icons..

imageandlikeness.com/meaning-of-icons-v-18.html

"The icons teach us,'' Bleam said. "They call us to worship and to glorify God.''

stlukeorthodox.com/html/iconography/iconhistory.cfm

The art of the catacombs was a teaching, art. Pagan symbols that already existed were used by Christians along with new ones that they invented. The catacombs bear witness that wherever Christians gathered, they created a visual environment to remind them of the Kingdom of God and help them pray.

As we have seen so far, in all ages and in all cultures the icon is not nearly a piece of art, but an aid to worship, ...

I then realized that Protestants resisting Icons were appealing to their own reason, resisting what it is that they are created for and ignoring the fact that the Bible tells us that we communicate in the manner in which we were created..

yalepress.yale.edu/book.asp?isbn=9780300063424

Although American Protestants often claim that they are opposed to the use of devotional images in their religious life, they in fact draw on a vast body of religious icons to disseminate confessional views, to teach, and to celebrate birthdays, baptisms, confirmations, and sacred holidays.

insightscoop.typepad.com/2004/2006/10/the_protestant_.html

While Protestants have historically resisted using pictures in their worship, they often do, in fact, rely on Sallman's images and others in teaching children, in evangelism, and in decorating their homes. For many of them, these activities are as important for everyday life as public worship, especially in forming the early faith of children in ways that will continue to shape their piety for the rest of their lives. This is why even a glimpse of Sallman's pictures can open a deluge of memories. The picture hangs around.

All Christians believe that they are created in the image an likeness of God. All humans define the world by use of the senses, Visual, Auditory, Kinesthetic, Olfactory and Gustatory. We communicate by use of Visual, Auditory and Kinesthetic.

It appears that the early efforts to resist the use of what it was we were created for and to use the methods of communication that we were given and reminded of in the Bible we believe in is giving way....we see...and what we see causes us to think...what we think and reason aids our Faith....

Is the notion of Iconography as evil being superseded by Faith overshadowing reason?

This is a large and broad topic. Any comments are welcome.


#2

[quote="CopticChristian, post:1, topic:304068"]
The Bible tells us about what it was we were created for and how it is we communicate.

In many and various ways God has spoken...sound

Come see the place...sight

There are many other examples of the use of our senses for taking in the world and communicaion in the Bible.

All Christians believe that they are created in the image an likeness of God. All humans define the world by use of the senses, Visual, Auditory, Kinesthetic, Olfactory and Gustatory. We communicate by use of Visual, Auditory and Kinesthetic.

Catholic Christian worship Auditory (song, prayer, reading, listening), Olfactory(incense), Kinethetic (sign cross, holding hands, etc).

Protestants of past ages resisted Visual representation, ie Icons and yet the need to satisfy the humanity of which they were created seeps through in many different forms. The Christian flag and Paintings include a few.

A flag is a symbol, standard, signal, or emblem, marking device, something of allegiance…

What is the purpose of a flag?

What does a flag represent?

Is a flag an Icon?

I found this concerning the "Christian flag"

christianitytoday.com/ch/asktheexpert/jul13.html

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Flag

I then found this concerning Icons..

imageandlikeness.com/meaning-of-icons-v-18.html

stlukeorthodox.com/html/iconography/iconhistory.cfm

I then realized that Protestants resisting Icons were appealing to their own reason, resisting what it is that they are created for and ignoring the fact that the Bible tells us that we communicate in the manner in which we were created..

yalepress.yale.edu/book.asp?isbn=9780300063424

insightscoop.typepad.com/2004/2006/10/the_protestant_.html

All Christians believe that they are created in the image an likeness of God. All humans define the world by use of the senses, Visual, Auditory, Kinesthetic, Olfactory and Gustatory. We communicate by use of Visual, Auditory and Kinesthetic.

It appears that the early efforts to resist the use of what it was we were created for and to use the methods of communication that we were given and reminded of in the Bible we believe in is giving way....we see...and what we see causes us to think...what we think and reason aids our Faith....

Is the notion of Iconography as evil being superseded by Faith overshadowing reason?

This is a large and broad topic. Any comments are welcome.

[/quote]

Hey Coptic,
One of the (many) ways Lutherans are distinct from other protestants is our rejection of iconoclasm. Let me know what you think of this video.

youtube.com/watch?v=lizfznY63Yk

Jon


#3

[quote="JonNC, post:2, topic:304068"]
Hey Coptic,
One of the (many) ways Lutherans are distinct from other protestants is our rejection of iconoclasm. Let me know what you think of this video.

youtube.com/watch?v=lizfznY63Yk

Jon

[/quote]

Jon,

Nice Video...3 words

Reformed Tradition
View
Understanding...

really says it all does it not...

also the word..

"looked"..

To dissassociate from what looked Catholic was a disservice to Christianity...conforms to my thoughts...what we see.....good one...:thumbsup:


#4

Coptic, I have to admit that I love your questions as they make me think.

Our LCMS school has the Christian Flag and our pupils recite the a Pledge to Christ (after saying the Pledge of Allegiance with the American flag. I happen to like it - it seems to be a good antidote to the last 100 years of secular international socialism.

American Lutherans do tend to have a habit of austere churches, but as our churches get older hope things are changing;

In my church, one of my joyful tasks is making the area where the wine and host are prepared and stored more befitting of what is happening - I'm copying the alter guild instructions onto imitation vellum using nice uncial calligraphy. I'm painting the walls with a nice design in an attempt to impress upon ourselves that this is a place where the task is sacred.

...

I can see both sides of the problem - where too much reliance on iconography could blind one to the fact that God is everywhere, and where too much austerity could create a barrier to seeing what it holy. For myself, I am at home at both - from the most humble Lutheran Kirch built by poor immigrants, to the most ornate Cathedral that has stood for hundreds of years.


#5

[quote="benjohnson, post:4, topic:304068"]
Coptic, I have to admit that I love your questions as they make me think.

Our LCMS school has the Christian Flag and our pupils recite the a Pledge to Christ (after saying the Pledge of Allegiance with the American flag. I happen to like it - it seems to be a good antidote to the last 100 years of secular international socialism.

American Lutherans do tend to have a habit of austere churches, but as our churches get older hope things are changing;

In my church, one of my joyful tasks is making the area where the wine and host are prepared and stored more befitting of what is happening - I'm copying the alter guild instructions onto imitation vellum using nice uncial calligraphy. I'm painting the walls with a nice design in an attempt to impress upon ourselves that this is a place where the task is sacred.

...

I can see both sides of the problem - where too much reliance on iconography could blind one to the fact that God is everywhere, and where too much austerity could create a barrier to seeing what it holy. For myself, I am at home at both - from the most humble Lutheran Kirch built by poor immigrants, to the most ornate Cathedral that has stood for hundreds of years.

[/quote]

What's interesting,Ben, is that the more modern the Lutheran church, the more austere it seems to be. I grew up in a parish where the building was built in 1850. Beautiful stained glass windows, beautiful design of the altar, etc. as a kid, I, of course, was used to the stained glass windows during a typical Sunday morning service, but I was always more impressed at at evening service when the windows were beautifully lighted from inside.
My experience is that it is rare in more "modern" building to see beautiful art. As you, said, however, I think that might be changing. Let's hope.

Jon


#6

[quote="JonNC, post:5, topic:304068"]
What's interesting,Ben, is that the more modern the Lutheran church, the more austere it seems to be.

[/quote]

I love old churches - I love their steadfastness.

Oddly enough though, one of my favorite Lutheran churches is a modern one - it's "in the round". It's hideously modern in a 1950's sort of way, but it has a amazing organ and always a full choir. One day, it dawned on me that 'in the round' is how some of the older Cathedrals were built - where you could sit at the sides of the altar.

Maybe one of these days we'll bring back the thuribles!


#7

Great work by the OP in post #1. Of course, as humans, in order to function optimally we have to use our senses. You have explained it comprehensively though.

Jesus’ work in his ministries appealed to the senses too. His teaching which very often using analogies and parables, something his listeners could identify with, his healings and his other miracles. Even he himself, he would not hold back in showing his emotion – the joy, the laughter, the sadness and the tears.

But the most beautiful of all, at least for me, is when God sent His only son to live among men – an omnipotent being to become flesh and blood just like anyone of us. The reason, among other things, is of course obviously to appeal to our senses so that we could see, touch, smell, hear and even taste him. Especially the last one, taste. Oh my, how wonderful God is and what a genius!


#8

[quote="benjohnson, post:4, topic:304068"]
Coptic, I have to admit that I love your questions as they make me think.

Our LCMS school has the Christian Flag and our pupils recite the a Pledge to Christ (after saying the Pledge of Allegiance with the American flag. I happen to like it - it seems to be a good antidote to the last 100 years of secular international socialism.

American Lutherans do tend to have a habit of austere churches, but as our churches get older hope things are changing;

In my church, one of my joyful tasks is making the area where the wine and host are prepared and stored more befitting of what is happening - I'm copying the alter guild instructions onto imitation vellum using nice uncial calligraphy. I'm painting the walls with a nice design in an attempt to impress upon ourselves that this is a place where the task is sacred.

...
**
I can see both sides of the problem - where too much reliance on iconography could blind one to the fact that God is everywhere, and where too much austerity could create a barrier to seeing what it holy.** For myself, I am at home at both - from the most humble Lutheran Kirch built by poor immigrants, to the most ornate Cathedral that has stood for hundreds of years.

[/quote]

Ben,

You love your family, you love your children, you use your eyes....is it a problem to see them too much? Does this blind you? Do we not see in the eyes of others the work of God? How much is enough?


#9

[quote="Reuben_J, post:7, topic:304068"]
Great work by the OP in post #1. Of course, as humans, in order to function optimally we have to use our senses. You have explained it comprehensively though.

Jesus’ work in his ministries appealed to the senses too. His teaching which very often using analogies and parables, something his listeners could identify with, his healings and his other miracles. Even he himself, he would not hold back in showing his emotion – the joy, the laughter, the sadness and the tears.

But the most beautiful of all, at least for me, is when God sent His only son to live among men – an omnipotent being to become flesh and blood just like anyone of us. The reason, among other things, is of course obviously to appeal to our senses so that we could see, touch, smell, hear and even taste him. Especially the last one, taste. Oh my, how wonderful God is and what a genius!

[/quote]

Reuben,

If you have not studied the Gospel of John with Scott Hahn...it is a marvel but see here...

No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

We are set up...no one has seen God...He has been explained and the very next mention of sight...

29The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

“I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him.

In some way we are told of not seeing God/Father....seeing the Son...and then seeing the Spirit...then...look....

“We have found Him of whom Moses in the Law and also the Prophets wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.” 46Nathanael said to him, “Can any good thing come out of Nazareth?” Philip said to him, “Come and see.”

Something I did not say in the OP is that we are 90% Visual in our communication...and having been created what does our creator use...words?, sounds?, no....sight.....:)


#10

[quote="CopticChristian, post:8, topic:304068"]
Ben,

You love your family, you love your children, you use your eyes....is it a problem to see them too much? Does this blind you? Do we not see in the eyes of others the work of God? How much is enough?

[/quote]

I get what you're saying and that's why I like both forms. My favorite church in the world is this one:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b1/SaintDenisInterior.jpg

This is a photo I took of St. Denis in Paris.

But I do like this Church too:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-KbLccU4flZ0/T5rLr4hzhcI/AAAAAAAABG8/n7Wcv5KcnGw/s1600/Elbe+Small+German+Lutheran+Church.jpg

This is a small and simple Luthan church outside Mt. Rainier - I didn't take this photo.

Think of the simple Lutheran churches as like what happens when you use a contemplative prayer like the Rosary. It lets you focus on Christ without the distractions.

At some points in my life, both forms of church and liturgy have helped my focus on God.

Sometimes I need to sing "Ein Feste Burg" and sometimes I crave to hear Allegri's "Miserere."


#11

[quote="benjohnson, post:10, topic:304068"]
I get what you're saying and that'swhy I like both forms. My favorite church in the world is this one:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b1/SaintDenisInterior.jpg

This is a photo I took of St. Denis in Paris.

But I do like this Church too:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-KbLccU4flZ0/T5rLr4hzhcI/AAAAAAAABG8/n7Wcv5KcnGw/s1600/Elbe+Small+German+Lutheran+Church.jpg

This is a small and simple Luthan church outside Mt. Rainier - I didn't take this photo.

Think of the simple Lutheran churches as like what happens when you use a contemplative prayer like the Rosary. It lets you focus on Christ without the distractions.

At some points in my life, both forms of church and liturgy have helped my focus on God.

[/quote]

Ben,

Perhaps there is a monastic in you trying to get out....have you gvien that any thought...I have at one time in my life....:)


#12

That’s a kind thought! Thank you!

I would say that your posts on CAF are a form of answering God’s call.

For me, I was horribly late in life in answering Christ’s call - so a few doors are closed. God has given me some of his children to tend, so I would sat that is my immediate calling right now.

I have attempted to cultivate a ‘closed’ environment for my family - we don’t have a T.V. but we do have a kitchen garden to work for example. My children are given the joys of an intellectually rigorous education, but we also keep a focus on the true gift of God’s salvation - my children do help me in that immensely.


#13

[quote="CopticChristian, post:11, topic:304068"]
Ben,

Perhaps there is a monastic in you trying to get out....have you gvien that any thought...I have at one time in my life....:)

[/quote]

That's a kind thought! Thank you!

I would say that your posts on CAF are a form of answering God's call.

For me, I was horribly late in life in answering Christ's call - so a few doors are closed. God has given me some of his children to tend, so I would sat that is my immediate calling right now.

I have attempted to cultivate a 'closed' environment for my family - we don't have a T.V. but we do have a kitchen garden to work for example. My children are given the joys of an intellectually rigorous education, but we also keep a focus on the true gift of God's salvation - my children do help me in that immensely.


#14

[quote="benjohnson, post:13, topic:304068"]
That's a kind thought! Thank you!

I would say that your posts on CAF are a form of answering God's call.

For me, I was horribly late in life in answering Christ's call - so a few doors are closed. God has given me some of his children to tend, so I would sat that is my immediate calling right now.

I have attempted to cultivate a 'closed' environment for my family - we don't have a T.V. but we do have a kitchen garden to work for example. My children are given the joys of an intellectually rigorous education, but we also keep a focus on the true gift of God's salvation - my children do help me in that immensely.

[/quote]

Ben,

Many of us were filled with the riches of Faith and never appreciate them, many of us respond to what it is we are called to do, many of respond to a call that has been heard for a long time and many of us continue to be called...

Isn't it supposed to be like that....those that tarry and plant the fields are ever as worthy as those that come later to plant...is it the number of plants or just the work?


#15

[quote="CopticChristian, post:14, topic:304068"]

Isn't it supposed to be like that....those that tarry and plant the fields are ever as worthy as those that come later to plant...is it the number of plants or just the work?

[/quote]

For me, I take great comfort in God's mercy as shown in Matherw 20:1-16 . I have squandered most of what God has given me, and I barely respond to his love, but I do have hope that he will continue to love me despite myself.

In my poor understanding, I would say that both the work and the plants are important as both occur beacue of God.

I invite correction!


#16

[quote="benjohnson, post:15, topic:304068"]
For me, I take great comfort in God's mercy as shown in Matherw 20:1-16 . I have squandered most of what God has given me, and I barely respond to his love, but I do have hope that he will continue to love me despite myself.

In my poor understanding, I would say that both the work and the plants are important as both occur beacue of God.

I invite correction!

[/quote]

Ben,

Not sure that any correction will come from me. How many of us have the honesty to admit what it is we squandered and how little we respond. This means that for me there is always room for improvement.


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