Commandments should not be followed ...

This post was taken from the thread “Your works gospel prevents you from understanding what God Himself achieved.” In that thread, Catholics were asserting that keeping the commandments is part of God’s plan of salvation.

Such a statement seems to me to be “cheap grace”, in the sense that it presents a false “liberty” that sets aside God’s standards, and promotes the notion that one can “sin boldly” as one is under grace.

The pure sophistry of these folks is amazing. I used to read the OT and wonder, “How the heck are the Jews so disobedient?” Now, there is no mystery.

I was going to go my usual route of posting Matthew 19 and asking why these people don’t listen to Christ if they’re going to claim to be Christians. Since that would only elicit the “this side of the cross” dodge from them, as though Christ lied to the rich man, I’ll take a different tack.

I’ll quote instead the Scriptural evidence from the far side of the cross.

Revelation 14:

“12”: Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

“13”: And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Revelation 22:

“8”: And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

“9”: Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

“10”: And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

“11”: He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

“12”: And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

“13”: I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

“14”: Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

“15”: For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

“16”: I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

“17”: And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

1 John 2:

“1”: My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

“2”: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

“3”: And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

“4”: He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

“5”: But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

“6”: He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

“7”: Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.

“8”: Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.

“9”: He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.

“10”: He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

“11”: But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

“12”: I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name’s sake.

“13”: I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.

“14”: I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

“15”: Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

“16”: For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

“17”: And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

“18”: Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

“19”: They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

“20”: But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

“21”: I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

“22”: Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

“23”: Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

“24”: Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

“25”: And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

“26”: These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

“27”: But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

“28”: And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

“29”: If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1 John 3

1": Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

“2”: Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

“3”: And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

“4”: Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

“5”: And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

“6”: Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

“7”: Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

“8”: He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

“9”: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

“10”: In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

“11”: For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

“12”: Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother’s righteous.

“13”: Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.

“14”: We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

“15”: Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

“16”: Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

“17”: But whoso hath this world’s good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

“18”: My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

“19”: And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.

“20”: For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

“21”: Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

“22”: And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

“23”: And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

“24”: And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Given this, ask this person which of the Commandments we are now free to break.

May we worship false gods?

May we murder one another?

May we commit adultery?

May we despise our mother and father?

May we covet our neighbor’s possessions?

May we steal?

Which are now perfectly acceptable for Christians to do, this side of the cross?

Which of these do the Apostles no longer condemn?

Even the Paulists, who read Paul primarily and selectively, seem to be able to avoid similar lists that Paul gives on the types of sins that keep us from inheriting the Kingdom of God. As a reverent Jew, he testified of himself that he kept the commandments. To say otherwise boggles the mind. :hypno:

I have a friend who says that the Sabbath should still be on saturday. That to have it on another day goes against God’s commandment. She says that the Catholic church wrongly changed it. She has other ideas that I have come to call “gutter trash.” I won’t go into all of that now.

One of her ideas is that Catholics will go to hell because of this change. Ugh!! Kind of reminds me of a mass mailed booklet that came out a few years ago called, “National Sunday law.” It basically attacked Catholics for this and some other things. disgusting.

Sabbath is indeed Saturday! :slight_smile: Sunday is the Lord’s day. As Catholics, we don’t keep the Sabbath, we keep the Lord’s day.

We are no longer under the old Mosaic law, but under Christ’s law (Romans 7:6). The Sabbath is a requirement of the Mosaic law, not the new law of Christ.

First they say “faith alone” and not “works of the law” and then, like hypocrites, they insist upon the Sabbath, which is a work of the old law (not the new law of Christ!)! :smiley:

The problem is that many Protestants have a faulty notion of what Paul means by “Law.” Since Paul says we are not under the Law, but under grace, they assume that Christians are no longer subject to any moral demands that may have an impact on our final eternal destiny. However, while Christians are certainly under grace, they are also under law, just not “The Law.” The Law means the Mosaic Law, but also means man in a carnal state, devoid of the mercy, grace, and Spirit of God and enslaved to sin.

Romans 7:5-6

**5For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. **

For carnal man, the Law only serves to point to his sinfulness and to condemn. It cannot deliver anyone from sin or give life. Chrisians have been delivered from enslavement to sin and hence from "the Law. However, this deliverance places Christians under another Law, the Law of Christ. Paul makes this distinction clear:

1 Corinthians 9:20-21

**20To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;
21to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. **

And what is the Law of Christ?

James 2:

8If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF,” you are doing well.

Twice in his epistle, James describes this law as the “law of liberty.”

James 1:25

25But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does.

So unlike “The Law”, which represents enslavement, the perfect Law of Christ represents freedom, the freedom to serve God in love (Romans 7:6, Galatians 5:13-14). A freedom we could not enjoy while being under “The Law” And by this “law of liberty” we shall be judged:

12So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.

However, only those who have experienced the mercy and grace of God, who have been delivered from enslavement to sin and become a “new creation” can fulfill the Law of Christ. The Old Law was based on the external observance of moral and ceremonial precepts. The New Law of Christ is based on an internal principle, namely, love. However, this love does not have its origin in man. Like faith, love is an infused virtue, a gift of God given to those who have become sons and daughters of God:

Romans 5:5

**5and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us. **

Hence only those who have been justified can exercise the virtue of love and thus fulfill the Law of Christ. And love means keeping God’s commandments:

2 John 6

6And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it.

Galatians 5:6

**6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love. **

1 Corinthians 7:19

19Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

So the moral law of God, formerly expressed in “The Law”, is given new life in the Law of Christ:

Romans 13:8-10

**8Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
9For this, “YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
10Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. **

The Law of Christ is the perfection and fulfillment of the Old Law.

God bless,
Michael

Are you referring to Matt 5?

.

Such a position separates belief from obedience, which is a mistake. At the close of John 3, disobedience is identified as the opposite of belief:

John 3:31-35

31 The one who comes from above is above all. The one who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of earthly things. But the one who comes from heaven (is above all).
32 He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony.
33 Whoever does accept his testimony certifies that God is trustworthy.
34 For the one whom God sent speaks the words of God. He does not ration his gift of the Spirit.
35 The Father loves the Son and has given everything over to him.
***36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him. ***

Paul on multiple occasions calls us to put to death the life of the flesh, and to live the life of the Spirit. How does one physically go about that? There’s a good answer in 1 John.

1 John 2:4-8

***4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoever keeps his word, the love of God is truly perfected in him. This is the way we may know that we are in union with him:
6 whoever claims to abide in him ought to live (just) as he lived. ***
7 Beloved, I am writing no new commandment to you but an old commandment that you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word that you have heard.
8 And yet I do write a new commandment to you, which holds true in him and among you, for the darkness is passing away, and the true light is already shining.

OK, so know God, we must keep his commandments. What exactly are those? Here’s what Christ told the Pharisees:

Matthew 22:34-40

34 When the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together,
35 and one of them [a scholar of the law] tested him by asking,
36 “Teacher, 21 which commandment in the law is the greatest?”
***37 He said to him, “You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.
38 This is the greatest and the first commandment.
39 The second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
40 The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments.” ***

These are the new commandments of the new covenant – which, as Christ says, is a summation of the whole law and the prophets. We are called to follow these.

James agrees that we can’t separate faith from obedience:

James 1:22-25

***22 Be doers of the word and not hearers only, deluding yourselves. ***
23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his own face in a mirror.
24 He sees himself, then goes off and promptly forgets what he looked like.
25 But the one who peers into the perfect law of freedom and perseveres, and is not a hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, such a one shall be blessed in what he does.

The bible is clear. To have faith is to live a life of obedience. To claim otherwise is heresy.

The Law does not bring Life, and I agree, it points to Christ, but He never set aside the Law. In fact, He continued to affirm that the moral standards given had not changed. Our manner of keeping them is enhanced by the HS, who now dwells in us, and empowers us to keep the commandments.

you say that one should not practice charity for the purpose or salvation. I think you say this because your concept of salvation is so narrow. You seem to believe “it is finished” at the beginning. What I think you would call “the instant of faith” and what those adhering to Apostolic doctrine would call baptism. This is what the Church calls a sacrament of initiation, beginning. After baptism, one begins to learn and to practice the obedience of faith.

I agree, we are under the Law of Grace. But that law does not make null the moral standards that God has revealed to us. The reason that love is the fullfillment of the Law is because one who loves does no wrong to a neighbor.

If you’re going to quote me, guanophore, then quote me IN FULL. I did not say "according to the gospel…,"

You seem to making a habit of quoting my posts to start other threads. Not that mind, but quote me in full or don’t quote me at all.

Moondweller’s statement seems to cheapen God’s commandments. Jesus did say. “If you love me, Obey my commandments.”

The Ten Commandments is not the ten suggestion. They are binding and Christians are binded to them and to obey them out of love.

Can you show me where Jesus referred to the 10 Commandments as His Commandments?

Matthew 19:

1: And it came to pass, that when Jesus had finished these sayings, he departed from Galilee, and came into the coasts of Judaea beyond Jordan;
2: And great multitudes followed him; and he healed them there.
3: The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
4: And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5: And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
6: Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
7: They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
8: He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
9: And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
10: His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.
11: But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.
12: For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it. **
13: Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.
14: But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
15: And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence.
16: And, behold, one came and said unto him,
Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?**
17: And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but **if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. **
18: He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, **Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19: Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. **
20: The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21: Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22: But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
23: Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24: And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
25: When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26: But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
27: Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
28: And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
29: And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
30: But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

Where in Scripture does it say that in the New Covenant we are now free to murder, free to steal, free to fornicate, free to covet?

It would be a waste of time to do so, IMHO, and take us away from the heart of the thread. He did say that He and the Father “are one” and He was there “in the beginning with God” - how could they NOT be His commandments? :confused:
Rather than dwell on such semantics, why dont you explain exactly where Christ says that

[quote=MD]" the 10 Commandments should not be followed either A) for salvation or B) for the believers rule for life?"
[/quote]

Where does Paul ever make such a claim? He specifically says that adulterers, fornicators, thieves etc etc will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor) - those are all from the 10 commandments. Do not be deceived…breaking the 10 commandments with full knowledge, consent and free will destroys our relationship through Christ to our Father.

Jesus actually takes the commandments much further. He says, do not even look at a woman with lust because you have already committed adultery in your heart. Do not even get angry with your brother because that is as good as murder. Not only can you not serve false gods, you can’t make money the center of your life. As Christ says, you can not serve two masters. These are all in Matt.5. In the very same chapter He speaks of those who will and will not enter the kingdom. He says not all those who say, Lord, Lord did we not prophesy in thy name? Did we not cast out demons in thy name? And He will respond begone from me for I never knew you. Not all those who call on the name of the Lord will enter the kingdom but those who do the will of His Father in heaven.

Jesus takes the commandments a step further. He does not abrogate them.

Well, my apologies if I cut out anything significant. The post was addressed to another individual who is not, to my knowledge, participating in this thread. Would it be better to say “Roman Catholic Gospel?” You have made it clear that you believe the RCC to preach a “works salvation” and that is the point from which I wished the discussion to spring.

You are correct that I wanted to move the discussion of commandments out of that other thread. It seemed like such a juicy topic, it deserved one of it’s own! :smiley:

This quote, also taken from the other thread, seemed to be very salient to this topic.

Read Tif’s post. I do not think I should repeat an answer. The commandments are not suggestion as you implied them to be. God is immutable and what he teaches is also immutable. Immutable means unchanging. The Ten Commandments itself concerns our moral life and how we ought to obey them out of love for God.

If you just doing the commandment without the love for God, you are only hurting your soul.

I think it is very foolish for a self-proclaimed Christian not to obey the commandments.

In the Gospels, Jesus give us a deeper look at the Ten Commandments.

They are required for us to obey. If you don’t think they are required by Christians to obey, then you could justify the following sins:

  1. You worship other gods.
  2. You can make false idols.
  3. You can take the Lord’s name in vain and make wrongful use for God.
  4. You don’t have to go to Church or attend Sunday service.
  5. You do not have honor your father and mother.
  6. You can kill or murder people.
  7. You can commit adultery.
  8. You can steal other goods.
  9. You can covet your neighbor’s goods.
  10. You can covet your neighbor’s wife.

To break then commandments of God, is to commit sin. God will judge you strictly on those laws and those laws concerning how you treat your brother and sister.

See how society would break down if the Commandments are not obey.

Such a question seems to imply that Jesus is not God. :eek:

Are you suggesting that the members of the Trinity do not operate in unity with one another?

John 1:1-5
1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God; 3 all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

Jesus gives so many affirmations of the commandments everywhere it amazes me to think that you would not consider them valid for Christians. Even if you can set aside the Gospel writings because He was “this side of the cross” then how do you dispense with the passages in Revelation? :confused:

This is a very good point. A person denying that the commandments apply to Christians would have to demonstrate that they do not represent the will of God.

Let me put it simply, those Christians who do not apply the Ten Commandments in their lives are hypocrites because they don’t live the precepts that God has taught and handed down from his Apostles and their successors, the bishop. They are the worst sinners.

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