Commandments

OP = ‘Original Poster’ or somtetimes ‘Original Post’.

God bless

Ok.

The Sabbath, a day of rest instituted by God for His creation of man (observed on the seventh day of the week) was fulfilled in the person of Christ. We rest in Him.

If you agree with that point, then both of you are in error. The Sabbath was always spiritual to the Jews. In fact, there is no separation between spiritual and secular life for the Jews. Everything they did was part of their faith practice - clothing, food, activities, including the Sabbath.

There has never been another way of salvation. All humans, throughout all time, have been saved by grace, through faith. There were Jews under the law that were saved this way, and their obedience to the law was the fruit of that salvation. Not all of them fell into the error of believing they could be saved by works.

This apparently is your belief, however, not all Christians beleive this way. Perhaps you believe that the ones who do not are not “true Christians”?

Part of the proof that some of those under the Law were saved by grace, through faith. :thumbsup:

Your rendering does not change the facts, Craig. The early Church celebrated Sunday because Jesus rose from the dead on that day. They called the 8th day “The Lord’s Day” because of the appearances He made on that day. They were faithful Jews, and also celebrated the Sabbath in the synagogue with other Jews (until they were expelled in about 70 AD).

This is a broad, sweeping statement that does not apply to all the Jews. there were some Jews that did understand the Sabbath, and followed the commandments out of love for God, just as David did, who wrote the Psalm you posted.

I think this is a false statement. I don’t think the Sabbath was ever perverted. I think that people become perverted. Their observances and perversions had detracted from the meaning and purpose of the Sabbath. However, since the Sabbath was established by God, it is not possible for men to sully it, even by their bad behavior. Their perversions belong to themselves, not God’s creation.

Yes, this is certainly true of many sincere Christians, who have not yet entered fully into His rest.

He wanted the Romans and Galatians to understand that they did not need to become Jews to be good Christians, and that if they chose to do so, they would be responsible for keeping “the whole law”.

Yes, and this is what He has done, by guiding the church infallibly.

has anyone,lately or in the past,had a good look at the calendar or calendars at home or at work or other places like library or other offices - do they show the week starting on a Sunday or Monday - both are of course wrong - guess why - twinc

Thank you

There has never been another way of salvation. All humans, throughout all time, have been saved by grace, through faith. There were Jews under the law that were saved this way, and their obedience to the law was the fruit of that salvation. Not all of them fell into the error of believing they could be saved by works.

**I agree with your statement “All humans, throughout all time, have been saved by grace, through faith”. I also agree with your statement " Not all of them fell into the error of believing they could be saved by works." :slight_smile:
**
This apparently is your belief, however, not all Christians beleive this way. Perhaps you believe that the ones who do not are not “true Christians”?

**Wow, this question, which is a very good question, could send this thread into another direction.
I am not here to judge anyone. I just want to provide information from scripture on what I have learned over the past 2 years. Without boring anyone I would like to provide my real life situation of what about “true Christian”. I am between 45-50 yrs old. I was baptized in a church when I was a child. I attended church weekly with my family for some 40 yrs. My great-grandparents were of the same denomination ( very involved) for at least 150 yrs. My parents are of the same denomination today. I taught church school while attending. The Holy spirit impressed me 2 yrs ago to read and search scripture…praise God. I no longer belong to that denomination. I still love my parents. I still believe they are Christians. However, when the Holy spirit impresses on my parent(s) to search the scriptures for the truth and they don’t listen, then they will have to answer to God. (Rom 2:13) (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
When one does not know the truth…(Act 17:30) And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

(1Jn 2:3) And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. (1Jn 2:4) He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (1Jn 2:5) But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
**

**There are very good Christians in every denomination. The bible does say that there are wolves in sheeps clothing - in every denomination. (Mat 7:21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. (Mat 15:8) This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. (Mat 15:9) But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

There are many Christians who believe they know Christ, yet there hearts are hardened with pride in the knowledge they have. Many Christians go on traditions that have been passed down throughout generations.**

Your rendering does not change the facts, Craig. The early Church celebrated Sunday because Jesus rose from the dead on that day. They called the 8th day “The Lord’s Day” because of the appearances He made on that day. They were faithful Jews, and also celebrated the Sabbath in the synagogue with other Jews (until they were expelled in about 70 AD).

Why did not any of the apostles, after Jesus, inform of the change in day of worship from Sabbath to Sunday? In regards to 70 AD… Jesus knew that the Sabbath was to be continued to be observed. Jesus informs the Jews of the destruction to Harod’s temple in 70 AD (Mat. 24:20) If the Sabbath was not to be continued to be observed why didn’t Jesus inform the Jews and say to them… after my crucifixion, worshiping on the Sabbath day no longer exist, you will worship on Sunday to honor my resurrection. When Jesus spoke to the multitudes and His disciples ( Mat 23,24,25) , He provides them with an overview of what will happen until He comes again. This would have been the opportune time to inform all that His Father has now changed the day of worship from the Sabbath to Sunday.

**Paul also preached to the Gentiles on the Sabbath. There are several references in the bible of Paul preaching on the Sabbath, no references to preaching on Sunday.

(1Jn 2:3) And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. (1Jn 2:4) He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (**

This is a broad, sweeping statement that does not apply to all the Jews. there were some Jews that did understand the Sabbath, and followed the commandments out of love for God, just as David did, who wrote the Psalm you posted.

I totally agree with you.

I think this is a false statement…

Sorry, I must have not explained my thoughts clearly.:frowning: You are right it was man who perverted the Sabbath, by their selfish acts.

Yes, this is certainly true of many sincere Christians, who have not yet entered fully into His rest.

He wanted the Romans and Galatians to understand that they did not need to become Jews to be good Christians, and that if they chose to do so, they would be responsible for keeping “the whole law”.

**Would you provide me with the scripture verse for the above.:slight_smile:

All Christians are to keep the …(Jas 2:10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Do you know how worshiping on Sunday first began?

Did James, Peter and John keep the Sabbath as a day of worship?

Would you please help me and tell me how you separate the quotes from a previous reply. Thank you.

Thanks again for the dialog

craig
**

Amen Craig - no argument there and I love your sincerity and the charity in your posts. Interestingly, I’m also am between 45 and 50 - grew up in the jewish faith, came to faith in Christ in an evanglical setting being baptized in that “tradition” and then through the drawing of the sacraments (eucharist and confession), study of scripture leading me intellectually to believe in apostolic succesion, and study of history of the earliest christians validating and supporting core Catholic doctrines, I became a Catholc (though my family did not).

I share your passion for scripture (which I study daily) - so happy to continue to dialogue with you. I agree whole heartedly with your statements re: christians existing within all denominations. I do believe the Catholic Church contains the fullest expression of the truth - but have tremendous respect for sincere Chrisitans and devotion to scripture and God within other denominations (and also among non-Christians who are searching for God).

As to the Sabbath - scripture shows us both that (i) christians gathered on Sunday for worship and fellow ship and (ii) christians continued to go to the Temple on the saturday Sabbath. As to the latter (i) many of the earlly christians (all apostles) were Jews and christianity started as a sect of Judaism. Paul said to a Jew he became “as under the law” although he was not under the “law” but the law of Christ. The best place to preach the gospel to jews (to whom the apostles were intially sent exclusively) was at the Temple on Sabbath.

To be clear - I believe anyone has liberty to celebrate the Saturday Sabbath in an external way - I beileve we all, as believeres, celebarate the “sabbath”’ every day. In the garden of Eden we were in God’s “rest” every day - the “rest” of God being eternal with his work of creation being completed. When we were expelled from the Garden of Eden, we lost that rest and the 7th day external Sabbath observance became a "symbol"of that rest - indeed i believe the Talmud talks of it being a glimpse of what it will be like in heaven. In Christ we are in that “rest” everyday.

Blessings,

Brian

Hi Brian

Thank you for your kind words. We are to rest in Christ everyday…I agree. Would you please provide me scripture in which you mention…“scripture shows us both that (i) christians gathered on Sunday for worship and fellow ship”.

In regards to preaching to the Jews, it was Jesus’ custom to preach to them on the Sabbath. If Jesus knew that worship was not going to be observed after His resurrection, why did he not inform the masses during His sermon on the mount.
Brian, we can continue to discuss our beliefs on this site, and/or we can also discuss via e-mail.

The apostle of Luke was a Gentile. Luke still observed the sabbath day and the commandment. (Luk 23:56) And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment. Also , the Gentiles wanted to be preached to on the Sabbath.

Here we read 40 yrs after Jesus crucifixion, that Luke refers to the Sabbath as “according to the commandment”, not according to the commandment “that was”, Therefore, the Sabbath commandment to Luke was continuing to be observed.

I have some information about how the day of worship changed from the Sabbath to Sunday. I am a little nervous about providing this information on this site. If you want to respond via your e-mail I will provide.
If anyone else wants this information they can provide me their e-mail.

Thanks Brian

craig

Scripture references to gathering on the "first day of the week"

“On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the next day, and he prolonged his speech until midnight.” (Acts 20:7).

“Now concerning the collection for the saints: as I directed the churches of Galatia, so you also are to do. On the first day of every week, each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper, so that there will be no collecting when I come” (1 Co 16:1–2)

Early written historical record indicating purpose of Sunday gathering in early Church:

Didache (circa 71-100AD):

"But every Lord’s Day, gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure . . . " (Note the reference to “break bread” - same phrase used in Acts 20:7)

Letter of Justin Martyr (155AD).

"And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.
(Justyn Martyr 155AD - The Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol.I : Translations of the writings of the Fathers down to A.D. 325 (186).

In regards to preaching to the Jews, it was Jesus’ custom to preach to them on the Sabbath. If Jesus knew that worship was not going to be observed after His resurrection, why did he not inform the masses during His sermon on the mount.

The mosaic law was still in effect, it was the custom of all rabbis to teach in the synagogue on the Sabbath and Jesus was reaching out to the lost sheep of Israel - thus Jesus preached during his ministry at the Temple on the Sabbath. In addition, one might say he effectively did tell them this, indirectly, as the Sabbath was observed in worship at the Temple and he predicted the Temple’s destruction. In fact, it was following the destruction of the Temple (circa 70AD) that saturday Sabbath observance among jewish christians, effectively ceased (at least from what contemporaneous written history seems to indicate).

The apostle of Luke was a Gentile. Luke still observed the sabbath day and the commandment. (Luk 23:56) And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment. Also , the Gentiles wanted to be preached to on the Sabbath.

Yes, this was the Mosaic Law - the full understanding of Christ’s redemptive work and the new covenant was not made known, even to the apostles, until Pentacost when the Holy Spirit fell upon them. Thereafter, as recorded in Galations, Hebrews and Acts there was continued discussion and confusion over the ongoing role of the mosaic law after Christ. This was resolved in the Jerusalem counsel when it was held that Gentiles need not follow the mosaic law and this concept of the new covenant superceding the mosaic law (fulfilled and made obsolete) is further developed in Hebrews and Galations.

Here we read 40 yrs after Jesus crucifixion, that Luke refers to the Sabbath as “according to the commandment”, not according to the commandment “that was”, Therefore, the Sabbath commandment to Luke was continuing to be observed.

Which verse? the Luke reference was following the buriel of Christ (the commandment in question was the commandment as understood “at that time”).

Yes. Of course.

Not Saturday.

That is a very fascinating testimony. :smiley: I hope that I am very involved in my parish when I am 150. :thumbsup:

What truth is it you think they are missing?

Are they among those who think that one does not have to keep God’s commandments?

Do you think your family members are following the commandments of men?

Can you give an example?

Your notions of what is “opportune” and appropriate for Jesus or the Apostles to say and do have very little value. It is not up to you to determine the times and seasons that God has fixed by His own authority.

There were many things that were not revealed to the Apostles until later:

John.14

[25] "These things I have spoken to you, while I am still with you.
[26] But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, **he will teach you all things, **and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

John.16
[12] "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.

You seem to be suffering from the misunderstanding that all of what Jesus had to say is in scripture. This is a false assumption.

Well, we read it differently.

But Paul had a habit of going first to the Jews in every town, and sought out the synagogues on Saturday.

What day of the week did Jesus rise? What day did He appear in the upper room?

It may be that, since Catholics find our rest in Christ over and above the seventh day of the week, that you think we are not keeping his commandments?

Gal.5
[3] I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he is bound to keep the whole law.

Yes, but we are not under the Law. We are under grace.
[/quote]

Yes, it began in the Upper Room, where the Apostles coward in fear because they thought they would be next.

He appeared to them on the first day of the week. Then, a week later, He did so again. They began to wait, and watch for Him to come.

The early Christians were all Jews, and celebrated the Lord’s Supper on the first day of the week, after attending the synagogue service on Sat.

All the evidence indicates that they did, though John writes that he was 'in the Spirit on the Lord’s day" which was the first day of the week.

There is a tutorial you can read. All you need to do is put the persons tagline:

Yes, it began in the Upper Room, where the Apostles coward in fear because they thought they would be next.

He appeared to them on the first day of the week. Then, a week later, He did so again. They began to wait, and watch for Him to come.

The early Christians were all Jews, and celebrated the Lord’s Supper on the first day of the week, after attending the synagogue service on Sat.

All the evidence indicates that they did, though John writes that he was 'in the Spirit on the Lord’s day" which was the first day of the week.

There is a tutorial you can read. All you need to do is put the persons tagline:

Your correct, the reason they met in the upper room was fear of the Jews, they would be next. The Apostles were not meeting in the upper room on the first day of the week to worship. This was in a private residence, not in a temple. This meeting had already been pre-arranged by Jesus…Mat 26:18, Mark 14:15-16, Luke 24:33, John 20:19. This meeting would have taken place in the evening, as told by their trip.

He appeared to them on the first day of the week. Then, a week later, He did so again. They began to wait, and watch for Him to come.

Because Jesus appeared to them on the first day of the week several times, that now the first day of the week is the day one should set aside for the day of worship? Without being sarcastic, that’s a very long stretch of the imagination.:rolleyes:

The early Christians were all Jews, and celebrated the Lord’s Supper on the first day of the week, after attending the synagogue service on Sat.

I don’t understand what you mean.:frowning:

All the evidence indicates that they did, though John writes that he was 'in the Spirit on the Lord’s day" which was the first day of the week.

What evidence indicates?

(Rev 1:10) I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

There is no indication in the above verse that determines if the Lord’s day is on Sabbath or Sunday.

To see when the Lord’s day is we read in… Exo.20:10, Isa 58:13 and Deut. 5:14

Thank you very much for the info on the tags and quotes.

No, and I did not claim that they were. For the Aposltes, “worship” consisted of the Lord’s Supper.

Do you honestly believe that they were all together, and terrified, but not at prayer?

No, actually. They just did not know what to do with themselves. The point is that they gathered, and Jesus appeared to them. It happened again on the week following. Is there any reason to believe that this pattern would not continue?

All of the gatherings of the Church occurred in private residences for 325 years!

Is there some reason it should not be? It was the day they gathered to celebrate the Lord’s Supper. This was the aspect of the sabbatical service that was missing on Saturday.

The scripture is clear that they gathered daily. How is this a stretch?

I think this is because you have not been to a synagogue service. Try it sometime. :smiley:

The early church fathers, and the historians that wrote in the first 300 years all indicate that the early church continued to observe the Sabbath with the Jews until they were ejected from the synagogues in AD 70.

No. However, the Sabbath is Saturday, and the Apostles celebrated the Lord’s Day on the first day of the week, because that is when He rose.

Paul preached every day of the week. He sought out the synagogues on Sabbath because he knew the Jews and God Fearing Gentiles would be there on that day.

Yes, and they also conducted baptisms on the first day of the week.

No. You called it “worship” because you have a deficient understanding of the nature of worship. You asked when the first day of the week started as a day of observation. It happened in the upper room. They were gathered in fear, and Christ appeared to them. the same thing happened the following week.

The pagans also have a deficient understanding of worship.

The Pagans who converted to Christianity had no connection with the Jews, Moses, or Sabbath. There was no reason for them to observe the Sabbath. They gathered on the first day of the week to celebrate the Lord’s Day.

Well, we read it differently, don’t we?

it is interesting you notice this, and yet, you do the same with your Sabbatarian perspective. :confused:

Yet, you think all those who do not follow the Law of the Sabbath are disobedient to His commandment…:confused:

As with so many of the topics that divide us, the transfer of the Sabbath observance to the Lord’s Day rests on the authority of the Apostles and their successors. Just as the Apostles, faced with a question Jesus had not specifically addressed (the conversion of Gentiles), determined at the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15) that only a minimal and symbolic bit of the Law was to be binding upon Gentile Christians, so they or their successors* determined that the Sabbath obligation would be fullfilled by Christians on the Lord’s day (which the ECF point out is not only the first day but the eighth day, the day of fulfillment/completion).

This did not happen instantly - after Pentecost, Christianity was still a sect within Judaism. The Apostles did continue to attend synagogue and Temple worship. They also celebrated the Resurrection with the sacrament Jesus had commanded, the Eucharist, (which is in fact what the expression “breaking of bread” refers to in the New Testament - it’s a ritual phrase which does not mean "they had lunch together).

The exclusion of Christian Jews from the synagogues happened gradually, in different towns and regions at different times, but widespread by time of the destruction of the Temple in 72 and formalized by the issuing of the birkat ha-minum in about 90.

As that process of exclusion spread, Christians appended the synagogue service to the eucharistic celebration, forming the structure of Liturgy of the Word/Liturgy of the Eucharist that we still have today.

I do think, however, that we need to reflect upon the fulness or lack thereof of our Sabbath observances. Particularly in the Western world, many of us have fallen into believing that just going to church fulfills this obligation - but doesn’t that neglect the “rest” that both the Ten Commandments and the teaching of the Lord tell us is the point of the Sabbath?


*Note: I have long assumed that the “official” acceptance of the Sunday sabbath came in the late first century, around the time of the birkat ha-minum. I was therefore interested to learn that in the Gospel resurrection accounts, the women go to the tomb “at the end of the Sabbath, at the dawn of the the Sabbaths.” (In the Greek of Matt. 28:1, Mark 16:1-2, Luke 24:1 and John 20:1 - the word each of the Gospels use for the day of the Resurrection, which almost all our English Bibles translate as “the first day of the week” - is Sabbaths - plural.) I just learned this today and I think it’s FASCINATING - it suggests that this transfer of the Sabbath observance to Sunday is clearly Apostolic in origin, effected before the writing of the Gospels.

Is there some reason it should not be? It was the day they gathered to celebrate the Lord’s Supper. This was the aspect of the sabbatical service that was missing on Saturday.

I do not understand what you mean by the following, please expand. “It was the day they gathered to celebrate the Lord’s Supper.” Thanks :slight_smile:

The early church fathers, and the historians that wrote in the first 300 years all indicate that the early church continued to observe the Sabbath with the Jews until they were ejected from the synagogues in AD 70.

Now we are getting somewhere. You are right!!! The early church ( God’s people) continued to observe the Sabbath with the Jews. Therefore, Sunday worship did not start at the day of Pentecost as other Catholics have eluded to. The Romans under Titus expelled the Jews from Jerusalem in 70 AD. What happened in the early AD300’s… Constantine.
If the Sabbath ended with the resurrection of Christ, why did the church continue for 300 years keeping the Saturday Sabbath.

No. However, the Sabbath is Saturday, and the Apostles celebrated the Lord’s Day on the first day of the week, because that is when He rose.

I previously provided many verses that clearly indicates that the Lord’s Day is the Sabbath.:slight_smile:

i’ve already demonstrated to you by scriputre and by historical record, that the Christians gathered together on Sunday (the Lord’s day) from the earliest years of the Church (when the temple still stood). It is not, as you suggest, something that started with Constantine in the 4the century.

It is true, as also noted by me and others earlier in this thread, that the jewish christians continued to go to the Temple on the Saturday Sabbath until the Temple’s destruction. Its not either or, but both. Saturday Sabbath worship by Christians (jewish and Gentile) appears to have coincided with Lord’s day worship (in history) until the destruciton of the Temple and then largely ceased thereafter.

This is as the fuller understanding between the mosaic law and the new covenant became clearer, as evidenced by the debates at the Jersusalem Council (Acts) and in the letters to Hebrews and Galations.

We can continue to discuss and debate “saturday Sabbath” on the merits, but the constantine issue is a straw man (easily resolved but even a quick google search) and certainly by looking at actual historical writings of the early Christians.

Again - as I noted before, you can start with Acts and with the Didache (dated anywhere from 71 to 100 AD).

Blesslings,

Brian

I previously provided many verses that clearly indicates that the Lord’s Day is the Sabbath.:slight_smile:

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