Communion and changes


#1

I was searching the web for an answer to why Catholics do not Kneel for communion and ended up on this site.

I stoped going to mass in my teens and after many decades I returned to regular attendace for the past four years. I love the mass and have no quarrel concerning the structure of the Mass. Nonetheless, I can only take communion from a priest and I am compeled to kneel. The first time I did this the pastor assumed I had an agenda.

I thought I would write this memo so some of the younger Catholics would understand what it was like to attend Mass in the thirties and forties.

Maybe a third of those attending Mass would receive communion as it was clearly understood that you had to attend confession and be without sin. Today the entire congregation receives communion, which is statiscally unrealistic. I believe the consecrated Euchrist is the body and blood of Christ. The priest in the old days would keep his thumbs and forefinger together once he touched the Euchrist. Now we have civilians giving communion.

The tabernacle is off in a corner and the priest sits behind the altar - center stage as in the protestant churches. The Bishop of Oranage County actually refused to serve a women kneeling for communion.

In researching this subject it has been stated that the majority of Catholics do not believe that the Euchrist is actually the body and blood of our Lord. Ireland recently hosted the Eucharistic conference and a survey was conducted in Ireland stating that 60% of the Irish do not believe in the host being the body and blood of our Lord.

The single most important issue that separates Catholics from the rest of the Christian community is the Euchrist and what it stands for in church teachings.

In the old days ushers wore suits for the collection. Today they will wander in wearing shorts. Not so in the Latino Mass. The majority of Catholics do not attend Mass on a regular basis. I am convinced that is a direct result of "dumbing down" the Mass, in their opinion, to make us less different than other denominations. The result, Catholic numbers are going down as other church dedominations increase. The Pope wants us to Kneel, God bless him, but there is no enforcement from Rome.

In the past four years I have heard very little about sin. In the old days the priests laid it on the line. We are Catholics who abhor abortion, yet it is the Catholics who vote in the politicians who vote for the right to have an abortion as well as other laws that fly in the face of teachings we must accept as Catholics.

I really enjoy the Mass and actually look forward to the event each week. I have over come the protestation of our religion by concentrating on the Mass as well as constant internal prayers during the entire Mass. If they want senior citizens handling the Euchrist and the wine so be it. If every one wants to take communion without a good confession so be it. If they want civilians in the pulpit, so be it. If the priest wants to sit behind the altar versus the tabernacle, so be it. If girls want to be altar servers, so be it. It still is a privalage to attend Mass.

In the old days, in a large church, there was standing room only and today it is half empty. The Church could be a power house in stopping the decline in all aspects of our life if they would remember one fundamental concept, "Tradition" it is one of the three legs in maintaining our faith.

The lack of any mandates, directives,enforcement, and clarity from Rome is the root cause of children being molested, the decline in our membership, the revolt by nuns, and other major issues.

Without question, the bottom line is the Euchrist and if it is the body and blood of Christ, which I believe, then fall on your knees.

Kullum


#2

In "In researching this subject it has been stated that the majority of Catholics do not believe that the Eucharist is actually the body and blood of our Lord." do you mean to say that they 60% have no belief in transubstantiation (a change in essence), or that 60% do not believe that the accidents of bread and wine change to accidents of flesh and blood?


#3

[quote="market224, post:1, topic:295045"]

Maybe a third of those attending Mass would receive communion as it was clearly understood that you had to attend confession and be without sin.

[/quote]

Did you mean to say without sin, or without mortal sin?


#4

[quote="Vico, post:2, topic:295045"]
In "In researching this subject it has been stated that the majority of Catholics do not believe that the Eucharist is actually the body and blood of our Lord." do you mean to say that they 60% have no belief in transubstantiation (a change in essence), or that 60% do not believe that the accidents of bread and wine change to accidents of flesh and blood?

[/quote]

I should think it extremely unlikely that 40% believe that the consecrated Eucharist has the accidents of flesh and blood. Some questions pretty much contain their own answers.

I don't think I've seen any survey in the last 10 years where more than 55% of self-identified Catholics believe in transubstantiation. Of course, not all those Catholics go to Mass, either.

To the OP: I'd be happy to fall on my knees, but unfortunately, I might need help getting back up. The main reason that I only kneel for Communion when attending the EF Mass is that then, there is an altar rail, so I know I can get back up, and also that I'm not keeping 100 people waiting behind me. Don't judge by appearances--I'm relatively young for health issues and people couldn't tell by looking at me that I have a bad knee.

And I'd be interested to know what "enforcement" you consider Rome should be providing. Because I have to disagree with your assessment of the causes of the problems. IMO, the causes of the problems are sinful pride and disobedience, not lack of enforcement.

--Jen


#5

[quote="revert_jen, post:4, topic:295045"]
I should think it extremely unlikely that 40% believe that the consecrated Eucharist has the accidents of flesh and blood. Some questions pretty much contain their own answers.

I don't think I've seen any survey in the last 10 years where more than 55% of self-identified Catholics believe in transubstantiation. Of course, not all those Catholics go to Mass, either.

To the OP: I'd be happy to fall on my knees, but unfortunately, I might need help getting back up. The main reason that I only kneel for Communion when attending the EF Mass is that then, there is an altar rail, so I know I can get back up, and also that I'm not keeping 100 people waiting behind me. Don't judge by appearances--I'm relatively young for health issues and people couldn't tell by looking at me that I have a bad knee.

And I'd be interested to know what "enforcement" you consider Rome should be providing. Because I have to disagree with your assessment of the causes of the problems. IMO, the causes of the problems are sinful pride and disobedience, not lack of enforcement.

--Jen

[/quote]

This is a US survey that I know about, from 2011:

ncronline.org/news/catholics-america/knowledge-and-belief-about-real-presence

The surveyed fall into four groups:
1. knowledgeable believer (46 percent of adult Catholics) - typically S or SW US, born 1941 to 1980
2. unknowing unbeliever (33 percent of adult Catholics) - typically NE US, Democrat
3. unknowing believer (17 percent of adult Catholics) - typically Hispanic, Midwest/West US
4. knowledgeable doubter (4 percent of adult Catholics) - typically born 1961 and later

"We found that half of adult Catholics (50 percent) know the church’s teaching regarding the real presence and half do not. We also found that close to two-thirds of adult Catholics (63 percent) believe that “at the consecration during a Catholic Mass, the bread and wine really become the body and blood of Jesus Christ.” Therefore, more adult Catholics believe the statement than understand its source. "

"Among all Catholics who know what the church teaches about the real presence, fewer than one in 10 (9 percent) say that they do not believe the doctrine."


#6

[quote="market224, post:1, topic:295045"]

Maybe a third of those attending Mass would receive communion as it was clearly understood that you had to attend confession and be without sin.

[/quote]

Did you mean to say you had to be without mortal sin?


#7

Peace and all good to you, Market. I will pray that your heart be softened, and your anxieties put to rest by the peace of Christ Jesus.


#8

[quote="Incomplete, post:6, topic:295045"]
Did you mean to say you had to be without mortal sin?

[/quote]

I found the information below with a quick search: keywords: mortal sin catechism communion
catholicism.about.com/od/baltimorecatechism/f/Question_255_BC.htm
Question: Does he who takes Communion in mortal sin receive the body and blood of Christ?
Answer: He who receives Communion in mortal sin receives the body and blood of Christ, but does not receive His grace, and he commits a great sacrilege.

This is Question 255 of the Baltimore Catechism, a work in the public domain.


#9

... Without question, the bottom line is the Euchrist and if it is the body and blood of Christ, which I believe, then fall on your knees

Well stated and properly concluded.:thumbsup:


#10

[quote="market224, post:1, topic:295045"]
I was searching the web for an answer to why Catholics do not Kneel for communion and ended up on this site.

I stoped going to mass in my teens and after many decades I returned to regular attendace for the past four years. I love the mass and have no quarrel concerning the structure of the Mass. Nonetheless, I can only take communion from a priest and I am compeled to kneel. The first time I did this the pastor assumed I had an agenda.

I thought I would write this memo so some of the younger Catholics would understand what it was like to attend Mass in the thirties and forties.

Maybe a third of those attending Mass would receive communion as it was clearly understood that you had to attend confession and be without sin. Today the entire congregation receives communion, which is statiscally unrealistic. I believe the consecrated Euchrist is the body and blood of Christ. The priest in the old days would keep his thumbs and forefinger together once he touched the Euchrist. Now we have civilians giving communion.

The tabernacle is off in a corner and the priest sits behind the altar - center stage as in the protestant churches. The Bishop of Oranage County actually refused to serve a women kneeling for communion.

In researching this subject it has been stated that the majority of Catholics do not believe that the Euchrist is actually the body and blood of our Lord. Ireland recently hosted the Eucharistic conference and a survey was conducted in Ireland stating that 60% of the Irish do not believe in the host being the body and blood of our Lord.

The single most important issue that separates Catholics from the rest of the Christian community is the Euchrist and what it stands for in church teachings.

In the old days ushers wore suits for the collection. Today they will wander in wearing shorts. Not so in the Latino Mass. The majority of Catholics do not attend Mass on a regular basis. I am convinced that is a direct result of "dumbing down" the Mass, in their opinion, to make us less different than other denominations. The result, Catholic numbers are going down as other church dedominations increase. The Pope wants us to Kneel, God bless him, but there is no enforcement from Rome.

In the past four years I have heard very little about sin. In the old days the priests laid it on the line. We are Catholics who abhor abortion, yet it is the Catholics who vote in the politicians who vote for the right to have an abortion as well as other laws that fly in the face of teachings we must accept as Catholics.

I really enjoy the Mass and actually look forward to the event each week. I have over come the protestation of our religion by concentrating on the Mass as well as constant internal prayers during the entire Mass. If they want senior citizens handling the Euchrist and the wine so be it. If every one wants to take communion without a good confession so be it. If they want civilians in the pulpit, so be it. If the priest wants to sit behind the altar versus the tabernacle, so be it. If girls want to be altar servers, so be it. It still is a privalage to attend Mass.

In the old days, in a large church, there was standing room only and today it is half empty. The Church could be a power house in stopping the decline in all aspects of our life if they would remember one fundamental concept, "Tradition" it is one of the three legs in maintaining our faith.

The lack of any mandates, directives,enforcement, and clarity from Rome is the root cause of children being molested, the decline in our membership, the revolt by nuns, and other major issues.

Without question, the bottom line is the Euchrist and if it is the body and blood of Christ, which I believe, then fall on your knees.

Kullum

[/quote]

So you've been gone for decades, and now you come back and expect everything to be just like it was when you were a child?

Just remember, when it was like that, you left the Church.

Whenever I hear this kind of thing from reverts, it always sounds to me like a person who left home for bad reasons when they were young, stayed away from Mom and Dad for decades, then finally repented and came home, only to complain to Mom and Dad that "you moved the furniture around!" or "why don't you still have meatloaf on Wednesdays like you always did when I was growing up?!" or "I feel like a stranger in my own house!"

Of COURSE you do! You ARE a stranger in your own house, because Mom and Dad have gotten older and have made some necessary changes in their lives! You missed all that because you chose to be gone--you MISSED the day that Mom started suffering pain from arthritis and made a decision to re-arrange the furniture so that she could move without stumbling over things, and your MISSED the day Dad came home from the doctor and announced that he is at high risk for heart disease and can no longer eat red meat (hence no meatloaf on Wednesdays).

Perhaps if you had stuck around the Church all those decades instead of leaving and staying away, you would understand all the reasons why things have changed. I suggest asking some of the older folks in your parish who have been faithful for all those decades that you were gone. I'm sure some of them probably agree with you and miss the old times, but they will also be able to explain to you why things have changed.

Finally, according to the rubrics, it is still OK for you to kneel and receive Communion (on your tongue if you wish), and to receive only from a priest. Quite a few people in our very modern OF parish do this. Most of them wait until the very end of the Communion out of politeness, so that they don't accidentally trip someone who is not prepared to have a person in front of them drop to their knees. If your parish does not follow the rubrics for some reason, then perhaps you could look for a more up-to-date parish that is in compliance with Holy Mother Church.

But please think about something--you say that the pastor "assumed you had an agenda" when you knelt for Communion.Remember that for decades, you were in rebellion against the Church. No wonder the priest is a little leery of your behavior now and perhaps wonders if you are really on the level.

Of course, I am assuming that the priest actually knows who you are.

OR....is it possible that the priest wasn't assuming anything about you? Did you ask him, and did he actually say to you, "What's your agenda?" Or was his "attitude" towards you all in your imagination?

Or consider this--if no one else in the parish kneels for Holy Communion and you did, the priest would show an expression of surprise on his face--that doesn't mean that he suspects you of harboring an agenda. It just means he was surprised.

Please examine yourself very carefully--is your suspicious, somewhat superior attitude towards the priest perhaps the same judgmental attitude that originally caused you to become disillusioned with the Church and walk away from Her?

It seems to me that already, in the short time that you have been back in the Church, you are looking for an excuse to complain about the Church. Don't do this. This can and does lead to people leaving the Church. *You of all people, a person who HAS left in the past, have to be on your guard against any attitudes in yourself that would give you a reason to once again depart from Holy Mother Church. Satan has gotten to you before--don't let him trick you again. *

Close your mind to any negative thoughts about the Church, and if you do become aware of something that is not perfect in your parish, then YOU take practical steps to make it perfect. If for some reason (age, disability, etc.) you are not able to take those steps to help your parish, then *it must not be something that you are meant to be concerned about or worry about, so put it out of your mind *and concentrate on all the glories and wonders of Holy Mother Church and your local parish.

I would suggest humbling yourself in your heart--you have been away for a long long time, and now you have returned. Don't expect everyone to welcome you as though you had never been away.

Earn your way back into the good graces of your parish by acting humbly and docilely, and by seeking ways to demonstrate that your heart has changed and that you now love Jesus and His Church above all else. I would suggest that you ask your priest if you can help with the most humble task in the parish, and then be faithful about fulfilling that responsibility.


#11

[quote="Carolus_Martell, post:9, topic:295045"]
... Without question, the bottom line is the Euchrist and if it is the body and blood of Christ, which I believe, then fall on your knees

Well stated and properly concluded.:thumbsup:

[/quote]

I have seen people do this at communion, almost knocking down those behind them in the communion procession or almost knocking over the priest (or extraordinary minister of Holy Communion). Personally, when I see someone kneeling to receive in the communion procession I feel that they are making the statement of "look! I'm holier than you! I am kneeling at communion when you are not!" We do not know the hearts of those coming forward to receive Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament, only God Almighty does. Please don't assume that if someone isn't kneeling at communion that they don't believe in the Real Presence.


#12

[quote="jeannetherese, post:8, topic:295045"]
I found the information below with a quick search: keywords: mortal sin catechism communion
catholicism.about.com/od/baltimorecatechism/f/Question_255_BC.htm
Question: Does he who takes Communion in mortal sin receive the body and blood of Christ?
Answer: He who receives Communion in mortal sin receives the body and blood of Christ, but does not receive His grace, and he commits a great sacrilege.

This is Question 255 of the Baltimore Catechism, a work in the public domain.

[/quote]

I asked the question because Market said to receive Eucharist we had to go to confession and be without sin, but did not specify mortal sin. I wanted to know if Market understood it we can receive with venial sin, that's why I asked. There's a big difference.


#13

@ Cat-

Very well said, my dear!! :thumbsup: :clapping::tiphat:


#14

[quote="Oneofthewomen, post:13, topic:295045"]
@ Cat-

Very well said, my dear!! :thumbsup: :clapping::tiphat:

[/quote]

Thanks. I hope it didn't sound nasty.

However, I truly do have a very difficult time with reverts who come back expecting that the Church stopped and waited for them, just like I have a hard time with converts (I'm one of them) who come into the Church expecting to change everything that the Church does.

I think that both reverts and converts need to take a lesson in continence and endurance from the faithful who have always been Catholics and have never strayed.

I know a good many Catholics who faithfully stuck with the Church and endured all the uncertainty and confusion of Vatican II, including the clown masses and the liturgical dancing and priests wearing blue jeans and all the rest. Even when everything looked dark, these dear people trusted their Church and their Lord Jesus, and today, they are still trusting, even though things in their parish still aren't perfect. They don't complain about the way things are, or sigh for the way things used to be. They simply do their duty and love the Lord and those around them. They are my examples, and I try (and often fail) to pattern my life after theirs.


#15

[quote="market224, post:1, topic:295045"]
I was searching the web for an answer to why Catholics do not Kneel for communion and ended up on this site.

  1. I stopped going to mass in my teens and after many decades I returned to regular attendance for the past four years.

  2. The result, Catholic numbers are going down as other church denominations increase.

  3. The Pope wants us to Kneel, God bless him, but there is no enforcement from Rome.

  4. In the past four years I have heard very little about sin. In the old days the priests laid it on the line.

  5. If every one wants to take communion without a good confession so be it.

[/quote]

Some questions, though first I want to say I am truly glad you returned to the Church.

  1. Why did you leave the Church, and how did God bring you back? (It's so good that you returned!!!)

  2. If it eases your mind, it seems that Catholic numbers are rising, though at a small percentage (when you already have a large number, it's harder for those percentages to go up!) while several (not all) protestant denominations are in decline. huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/15/report-us-churches-contin_n_823701.html. The bigger problem is that Catholics are not attending Mass regularly. That is an issue of concern. Another problem is that so many are not raised with a good understanding of the Church.

  3. The Pope prefers us to kneel, but there is no enforcement because that is a preference from the Pope, not a command of the Church. While I understand the desire to kneel, what is in your heart is more important than if you are kneeling. As has been pointed out, you left the Church during the days when everyone was kneeling and you didn't return for a long while. I would agree that we need better teachings of how wonderfully gracious God is in providing us Eucharist, and I prefer kneeling as well. But back in the day when kneeling was the norm, some knelt just because it's what we did, not because they really understood in their heart the greatness of the Lord and what they were about to receive. Education is more important than enforcement because,for those who just routinely receive without giving Eucharist much thought, it's a change of heart that is needed.

  4. The priest who changed my life the most was not one to preach about things like abortion. That's fine with me. We all know that abortion is wrong, adultery is wrong, stealing is wrong, etc. Instead, he talked about things we all do every day, and inspired me to want to change. For example, I never considered myself one to gossip, until he pointed out something one day that showed me the small ways I do, indeed, gossip. He had a way of showing us where we need to grow on a daily basis. I learned that if I work on the small things, the big things have a way of taking care of themselves. He taught me to want to serve God in all areas, but he never mentioned abortion. He didn't often use the word "sin", but anybody with ears knew what he was talking about.

I personally know of people who left the Church decades ago because the preaching was always about how bad we all were, neglecting the great love of God and leaving them feeling as though they would never, ever measure up...so why bother? It left them with the impression of a rigid, unloving God. I know others who never left but are still working to get past the impression of a God who basically looks for every reason to condemn us.

  1. This last one bothers me because it comes up a lot on these forums. When you go to communion and see those long lines, which of those people do you think shouldn't be receiving...and how do you know? My confessor is not my parish priest, so you might think I never go because you'd never see me in line for the confessional. My daughter's last confession (last week) was in a private appointment with the priest, so you wouldn't see her in a confessional line, either. That, and it's mortal sin that we have to be wary of when it comes time to receive Eucharist. Mortal sin requires full knowledge and consent. I would like to think that when you go to Mass, you are not looking around and passing judgement on people. While I agree that we need to find a way to help people understand the importance and beauty of confession and help them to return to it, we have no idea who in line should or shouldn't be there.

Remember, too, that not everyone who used to decline Eucharist did so because of sin. There was also a longer fast time before communion. (I remember those days.) And there are always other reasons.

And that part about passing judgement is a big problem. You see it on these forums every day. I read an article on another site talking about where we sit at Mass, and asking whether it relates to where we are spiritually. Some thought that sitting in back truly does indicate less spirituality. (I sit in the back sometimes for a variety of reasons.) Some stated that those sitting in front are just trying to show off their holiness. Wow, I sit in front sometimes, too, for a variety of reasons. One place I rarely, rarely sit is the middle, also for a variety of reasons. Yet here were people judging others for sitting everywhere but in the middle.

I hope I am not distracting others by sitting in front, or in back, or by receiving Eucharist, or for basically any reason. I attend Mass to worship, and I worship with my fellow Catholics. I hope you can do this, too, with a joyful and giving heart.

Welcome home!


#16

talking of passing judgement
I wonder how many of judgmental looks I'd get from everyone here etc if they saw me reading a book of my choice through communion whilst on the Altar. No worries, you be inline with half of congregation of the church I go to and he sure will get one complaint from the server who sits next to me. But I've sought permission from the priest who knows exactly why and reassurred me and strictly in my own fears told him too how one server be upfront pally with me but will complain ot him later. But we are all very good at judging each other aren't we wanting to think the worst.... :blush: pot kettle black. though only know that one person will complain because totally accidently overheard a complaint when I first started to serve by him all based on hearsay because I know who knows what per se because I have actually told no one anything and that will sound double dutch but.... judging others is double dutch though we all do it :blush: from what he was complaining about too. No one realised I had over heard as what does one do but the current priest now knows that and will realise am not just being totally judgemental about the server though borderline perhaps. Judgemental but with personal reason :blush:

by the way to the opening poster, not all Protestant Church Priests sit centre stage as you termed it.... No, our priest who was new last year, moved his chair to one side of the Altar which means he does some bits of the service down my ear... :p


#17

[quote="Cat, post:14, topic:295045"]
Thanks. I hope it didn't sound nasty.

However, I truly do have a very difficult time with reverts who come back expecting that the Church stopped and waited for them, just like I have a hard time with converts (I'm one of them) who come into the Church expecting to change everything that the Church does.

I think that both reverts and converts need to take a lesson in continence and endurance from the faithful who have always been Catholics and have never strayed.

I know a good many Catholics who faithfully stuck with the Church and endured all the uncertainty and confusion of Vatican II, including the clown masses and the liturgical dancing and priests wearing blue jeans and all the rest. Even when everything looked dark, these dear people trusted their Church and their Lord Jesus, and today, they are still trusting, even though things in their parish still aren't perfect. They don't complain about the way things are, or sigh for the way things used to be. They simply do their duty and love the Lord and those around them. They are my examples, and I try (and often fail) to pattern my life after theirs.

[/quote]

I would like add my like to your post.

Having grown up in a Catholic "ghetto" or "bubble" in the late fifties and through the sixties I can assure you that many reverts have selective memory and nostalgia for a world that never REALLY existed. There were many people who were Catholic in name only, many husbands and fathers who did not go to Church on a frequent basis, women who wore their large hats and sat in conspicuous places, families that were dysfunctional and abusive, and piety on steroids, and a fair amount of Easter and Christmas Catholics.

I think you get the picture. Sorry about the min-rant but I get very tired of people thinking that turning the clock back will solve the problems by magic.


#18

AAHHHH...
another refreshing voice of reason from someone who was there!!
Thanks CoachDennis! :D

and @ Cat, not I do not think you were harsh, just honest and this is also very refreshing!!

[quote="coachdennis, post:17, topic:295045"]
I would like add my like to your post.

Having grown up in a Catholic "ghetto" or "bubble" in the late fifties and through the sixties I can assure you that many reverts have selective memory and nostalgia for a world that never REALLY existed. There were many people who were Catholic in name only, many husbands and fathers who did not go to Church on a frequent basis, women who wore their large hats and sat in conspicuous places, families that were dysfunctional and abusive, and piety on steroids, and a fair amount of Easter and Christmas Catholics.

I think you get the picture. Sorry about the min-rant but I get very tired of people thinking that turning the clock back will solve the problems by magic.

[/quote]


#19

[quote="market224, post:1, topic:295045"]
I stoped going to mass in my teens and after many decades I returned to regular attendace for the past four years. I love the mass and have no quarrel concerning the structure of the Mass. Nonetheless, I can only take communion from a priest and I am compeled to kneel. The first time I did this the pastor assumed I had an agenda.

[/quote]

You're certainly ALLOWED to kneel, even though the norm in the United States is to stand for reception. You're also ALLOWED to change "lines" if it suits you...

but to point out a fact: Jesus is Jesus. You don't get "partial Jesus" by receiving from a Eucharistic minister rather than the priest. I'm concerned about the focus on "must come from a priest to be good enough" that seems to be cropping up lately. I mean, is the use of EMs to be avoided if possible? Sure, but they are allowed and Christ is no less Christ because of it.

Maybe a third of those attending Mass would receive communion as it was clearly understood that you had to attend confession and be without sin. Today the entire congregation receives communion, which is statiscally unrealistic.

Unrealistic or not (not that I don't agree with you on the statistical analysis part), nobody on earth is able to look at another person and determine if they are in a state of sanctifying grace or not... nobody. For all we know, everyone at your parish attends confession regularly, or is exceptionally devout and in a state of grace. That is the presumption that the Catechism asks us to make regarding rash judgements.

As a side note, if we are spending our time considering what proportion of the laity is receiving unworthely, then I would guess that our spiritual and mental state at that time is NOT one in which we OURSELVES are disposed to receive, and that in that regard it is US who should be staying in the pews, trying better to focus on Christ rather than the laity around us.

I believe the consecrated Euchrist is the body and blood of Christ. The priest in the old days would keep his thumbs and forefinger together once he touched the Euchrist. Now we have civilians giving communion.

Side note: priests are civilians (unless they are military chaplains). Do you mean laity? Do you mean unordained persons giving out communion? If so, you should know that historically laity have given out communion from time to time and in such various places as it was required. Eucharistic Ministers were always utilized to deliver the Eucharist to those who were to sick to attend mass. In other words, those "civilians" have been there all along.

The tabernacle is off in a corner and the priest sits behind the altar - center stage as in the protestant churches. .

The location of the tabernacle should be a "place of prominence", not necessarily against the wall in the center of the church. An example where the "chair" is centered directly behind the altar? St Peter's Basillica.

In fact, there are very MANY old cathedrals and churches where the tabernacle is and was on a side altar rather than "front and center". The idea that there was ever a strict rule that the tabernacle would ALWAYS be placed directly behind the altar is fallacy.

The Bishop of Oranage County actually refused to serve a women kneeling for communion

I don't presume to judge a bishop or his motives. He may have known something about this woman that we do not. The church is founded in the bishops, and when we start standing against the bishops, we are in dire straights.

In researching this subject it has been stated that the majority of Catholics do not believe that the Euchrist is actually the body and blood of our Lord. Ireland recently hosted the Eucharistic conference and a survey was conducted in Ireland stating that 60% of the Irish do not believe in the host being the body and blood of our Lord.

Without knowing what was asked in this survey, or the catechesis and perceptions of those who answered, we can't really say much about those results. For example, if the survey asked "do the bread and wine physically become the Body and Blood of Christ", there is probably a lot of ambiguity because the physical aspects of bread and wine do not change, while the physical aspect of substance does.

But even overlooking survey ambiguity, in the age of information I find it difficult to believe that western society catholics do not know that the church teaches transubstantiation as a doctrine. That information is out there and in every RCIA and catechism class that I'm aware of. Whether or not people choose to accept that probably has more to do with the rampant spread of the materialist heresy than with the structure of the ordinary form.

What is needed is good catechesis and good apologetics to combat materialism, and that movement is already taking shape as the vatican urges catholics to participate in social and technological media.

In the old days ushers wore suits for the collection. Today they will wander in wearing shorts.

I'm generally opposed to shorts for mass, but again, they are allowed provided they are modest and of acceptable appearance.

Furthermore, suits used to be the go to for social events. By and large, SOCIETY as a whole has shifted away from more formal attire to more casual. The fact that people in the 40s wore suits to mass does not indicate that they held mass in any greater regard than people do today... it's just that people dressed differently in the 40s.

For example, people going to a baseball game, or people enjoying an evening at a nightclub

Suits USED to be the go to for any social event. Today they are not.

The majority of Catholics do not attend Mass on a regular basis. I am convinced that is a direct result of "dumbing down" the Mass, in their opinion, to make us less different than other denominations. The result, Catholic numbers are going down as other church dedominations increase. The Pope wants us to Kneel, God bless him, but there is no enforcement from Rome.

Contrary to what you state here, the Catholic church is growing in numbers faster than it has in history. Since Vatican II, the Catholic Church has nearly doubled in size.

Even if we look ONLY at the United States of America, the Catholic Church is one of the few churches which is increasing in size, while most of the protestant denominations are on the decline.

I'm also not convinced that the "dumbing down" of the mass is at fault for decreased mass attendence (although mass attendence is on the rise again as well). Again, I would blame the widespread heresy of materialism for diluting Catholic teachings, which are more available to the laity today than at any point in history.

In the past four years I have heard very little about sin. In the old days the priests laid it on the line. We are Catholics who abhor abortion, yet it is the Catholics who vote in the politicians who vote for the right to have an abortion as well as other laws that fly in the face of teachings we must accept as Catholics.

Again, there is the materialist heresy. There is also the fact that there's no membership card to call onesself catholic. Simply put, there are many people who name themselves as catholic who have little present-day connection to the church.

In the old days, in a large church, there was standing room only and today it is half empty.

The number of churches as well as the number of masses each weekend has also increased (in fact, moreso than the number of lay persons). More people having to work on Saturday and Sunday means that more people have to attend masses at odd times. When a parish that PREVIOUSLY had two masses a weekend now has 6, one expects the number of people per mass to decrease.

The Church could be a power house in stopping the decline in all aspects of our life if they would remember one fundamental concept, "Tradition" it is one of the three legs in maintaining our faith.

The Church is well aware of tradition, what it really is, and its place in teaching. And, as a cursory glance at news regarding the HHS mandate shows, the church IS a "powerhouse" for stopping encroachment on church teaching.

The lack of any mandates, directives,enforcement, and clarity from Rome is the root cause of children being molested, the decline in our membership, the revolt by nuns, and other major issues.

I always hesitate when someone says this, because pedophilia is an acute mental disease with very complex causes. To say what you have here definitely denies the reality of the circumstance to suit what you're trying to push... but the reality is that many many of the cases date back prior to the days of Vatican II.

The decline in membership is a farce, since the church is growing both globally and domestically. The "revolt" by the nuns isn't about the fact that they are unaware of catholic teachings, so much as they don't care because of materialistic perceptions.

The bottom line is this: there are REAL problems in the church, as there have always been. Combatting a major and spreading heresy is one of them, and combating abuse of the priesthood by pedophiles joining to gain access to children is another... but blaming those very real problems on the make-believe boogey-man of the ordinary form of the Mass is counter-productive, and can only serve to allow these problems to continue while REAL solutions evade us.


#20

[quote="Cat, post:10, topic:295045"]
So you've been gone for decades, and now you come back and expect everything to be just like it was when you were a child?

Just remember, when it was like that, you left the Church.

Whenever I hear this kind of thing from reverts, it always sounds to me like a person who left home for bad reasons when they were young, stayed away from Mom and Dad for decades, then finally repented and came home, only to complain to Mom and Dad that "you moved the furniture around!" or "why don't you still have meatloaf on Wednesdays like you always did when I was growing up?!" or "I feel like a stranger in my own house!"

Of COURSE you do! You ARE a stranger in your own house, because Mom and Dad have gotten older and have made some necessary changes in their lives! You missed all that because you chose to be gone--you MISSED the day that Mom started suffering pain from arthritis and made a decision to re-arrange the furniture so that she could move without stumbling over things, and your MISSED the day Dad came home from the doctor and announced that he is at high risk for heart disease and can no longer eat red meat (hence no meatloaf on Wednesdays).

Perhaps if you had stuck around the Church all those decades instead of leaving and staying away, you would understand all the reasons why things have changed. I suggest asking some of the older folks in your parish who have been faithful for all those decades that you were gone. I'm sure some of them probably agree with you and miss the old times, but they will also be able to explain to you why things have changed.

... SNIP ...

It seems to me that already, in the short time that you have been back in the Church, you are looking for an excuse to complain about the Church. Don't do this. This can and does lead to people leaving the Church. *You of all people, a person who HAS left in the past, have to be on your guard against any attitudes in yourself that would give you a reason to once again depart from Holy Mother Church. Satan has gotten to you before--don't let him trick you again. *

Close your mind to any negative thoughts about the Church, and if you do become aware of something that is not perfect in your parish, then YOU take practical steps to make it perfect. If for some reason (age, disability, etc.) you are not able to take those steps to help your parish, then *it must not be something that you are meant to be concerned about or worry about, so put it out of your mind *and concentrate on all the glories and wonders of Holy Mother Church and your local parish.

I would suggest humbling yourself in your heart--you have been away for a long long time, and now you have returned. Don't expect everyone to welcome you as though you had never been away.

Earn your way back into the good graces of your parish by acting humbly and docilely, and by seeking ways to demonstrate that your heart has changed and that you now love Jesus and His Church above all else. I would suggest that you ask your priest if you can help with the most humble task in the parish, and then be faithful about fulfilling that responsibility.

[/quote]

This is the best advice to be given here. Reversion seems to produce a greater sense of devotion, which, if unguarded, can fall into "false devotion", which is actually sinful pride. I say the following as a catholic who fell away from attending mass for several years (still "devout", still knowing that I should be at mass, but no less at odds with that understanding in my practice):

It is important to remind ourselves that these people around us, whom we are judging, may be guilty of various sins... but one thing they are not guilty of is having abandoned the Body of Christ as we have.


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