Communion as Jesus intended


#1

If we all claim to be followers of Christ, then why don’t we follow Him in the examples he followed? Especially the ones He gave SPECIFIC instructions about?

Read this please, important to true faith and practice

leaderu.com/theology/passover.html


#2

1.) This looks more like a thread for non-Catholic religions, rather than a thread about current Liturgy and Sacraments, IMO.
2.) Whatever it is you linked, it’s not working right now. I tried it TEN times.


#3

<<If we all claim to be followers of Christ, then why don’t we follow Him in the examples he followed? Especially the ones He gave SPECIFIC instructions about?>>

I wonder about that with Protestants and especially pop-evangelicals all the time.


#4

Well, the link works now.

Given that it appears to be a Bible Study based on non-Catholic claims taken out of context, I simply can’t accept that the link is correct in its interpretation. It has abosultely nothing to do with the Eucharist in the setting of Mass or Divine Liturgy. And it should still be moved to Non-Catholic Religions threads.


#5

To the OP:

I see by your profile that you list yourself as a Christ follower. All of us in this forum are Christ followers. We follow Him by way of the Church that he himself founded. Your tagline also indicates a little about where you stand on things (the issue of faith vs. works).

I say this because I’m really trying to get a handle on how best to address your thread.

At the Last Supper, Jesus pretty much laid the groundwork for how Commmunion was supposed to be done. When Jesus took the bread, broke and blessed it, he said, “This is my body, which will be given up for you.” Likewise, when he took the cup filled with wine, he said, “Take this and drink. This is the cup of my blood, the blood of the new covenant which will be shed for you and for the many.” Then he said “Do this in memory of me.”

The Church takes this command ultra seriously and to heart. Her Divine Spouse commanded her to do this in memory of Him. But, this was to be done through the ministerial priesthood that Jesus established that night, conferring his authority on the Apostles with the words, “Do this in memory of me.”

Furthermore, if you carefully read through the Old Testament, you will find that many things point to this sacred ritual we call the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Melchizedek offered bread and wine. This same bread and wine appears throughout the Old Testament. It is the Todah Sacrifice of Thanksgiving and, the prophet Malachy (or Micah–it’s late and my contacts are sticking to my contacts :smiley: ), but, the prophecy states that everywhere, a sacrifice of bread and wine will be offered and incense will be burned. The only one that offers this sacrifice and the incense, is the Church.

Therefore, there are substantial indications throughout the Bible that point to the Mass. Jesus, himself, set the standard. It is the Church that maintains this very sacred act.

I hope this helps you in some way.


#6

Give this a read zuserver2.star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m4/4cp.html


#7

I don’t know if the op is among them but there are those who consider themselves spiritual Jews and believe in order to be a true Christian one must follow the Judaic customs that were practiced at the time of Christ. A modern variation of the Ebionites beliefs that were refuted at the Council of Jerusalem.

That includes communion distributed as a full passover meal male circumcision and adhering to old testament Mosaic laws as being necessary integral parts of the faith.


#8

Hmm, this does look like a discussion that should be moved into the apologists or non-catholic forum as it has little to do with Catholic liturgy.

Looking at the tagline of the poster I would say that Ephesians is better understood by taking it in context, as Christians have throughout history, not just in the Martin Luther context.

If you are going to quote Ephesians, please don’t misrepresent it and leave off verse 10.

This article looks like a modern interpretation, read back to seek to modify the historic understanding to twist it to a non-catholic understanding.

It is interesting though and I like to see the interesting parallels between this and those liberal Catholics who are trying to reinterpret the Bible and sometimes even denying it so they can modify the Liturgy.

God Bless
Scylla


#9

Weird…I just tried it from my own post and it went right to it.


#10

On that statement I would agree 100%! Because the Catholic mass and liturgy for the Lord’s Supper (or Eucharist) has nothing to do with the Passover meal which Jesus was sharing with his disciples. Jesus wasn’t making up stuff as He went along…NO! Jesus was showing that He was the fulfillment of all the elements of the Passover meal!

Hence, our correct understanding and true worship of the Lord in taking the elements demands that we have a true understanding of the foundation of that meal rather than making up our own “rituals and traditions” or liturgy (which is why I posted it here).

Luk 22:11 and tell the owner of the house, 'The Teacher says to you, "Where is the guest room where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?"'
Luk 22:12 Then he will show you a large furnished room upstairs. Make preparations there."
Luk 22:13 So they went and found things just as he had told them, and they prepared the Passover.
Luk 22:14 Now when the hour came, Jesus took his place at the table and the apostles joined him.
Luk 22:15 And he said to them, "I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer.
Luk 22:16 For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God."
Luk 22:17 Then he took a cup, and after giving thanks he said, “Take this and divide it among yourselves.
Luk 22:18 For I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”

In Jesus’ time there were four cups filled with wine which were drank during a Passover meal which was based on the four “I will…” statements of YHVH in Exodus 6:6-7. This is still present in Passover Haggadah’s (“telling”) today.

Exo 6:6 Therefore, say to the Israelites, 'I am the Lord, and [1]I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and [2] I will rescue you from their hard labor, and [3] I will redeem you by my outstretched arm and with great judgments.
Exo 6:7 And [4] I will take you to myself for a people, and I will become your God. Then you will know that I am the Lord your God, who brought you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.

  1. Cup of Sanctification-“I will take you out of Egypt.” Egypt almost always being symbolic of the world. NT application to the Christian…God will take us out of the world

  2. Cup of Deliverance- “I will deliver you from slavery” Slavery being symbolic of our slavery to sin.

  3. Cup of Redemption- “I will redeem you with a demonstration of my power” Just as God didn’t stop at just taking the Israelites out of Egypt so God has redeemed us by the blood of His Son, totally by God’s power alone, not ours. This third cup is the cup Jesus was most likely sharing at the time he said “This is the cup of the new covenant…”

  4. Cup of Restoration- “I will acquire you as a nation, my people” This is the promise of the kingdom of heaven and the millenial kingdom. This is the cup Jesus promised He wouldn’t drink again until He drank it again with his disciples in His Father’s kingdom.

Mat 26:29 I tell you, from now on I will not drink of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom."

This is confirmed by the Apostle Paul when he wrote:

1Co 11:26 For every time you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

Until he comes. Which means he IS coming again. Paul is referring to the fulfillment of the 4th cup of Restoration promised by the Messiah himself. Communion isn’t just a looking back to Christ’s sacrifice to redeem us from the slavery of sin, but a looking forward the physical return of Jesus Christ to the earth. Just as for the Jews it wasn’t just to remember that they were redeemed from Egyptian slavery but rather to look forward to the Messiah who would redeem their souls from the slavery of sin.

Then in a usual way to end the Passover meal they sang a hymn.

Now we have a choice. We can either bury our heads in the sand, immediately reject what I’ve just said out-of-hand and say “Well, we’ve never done it that way before, this is my tradition and I’m sticking with it right or wrong.” Thereby sticking to a tradition and ritual that isn’t in the Bible.

Or you can pray, think, reflect and investigate the Bible to be a good Berean and see whether these things are true (Acts 17:11)

The ball’s in your court.


#11

SolaFide,
There is something weird going on with that site. It keeps trying to load for me, but just freezes and never comes up. Maybe you can post sections of the relevant information on here???


#12

I don’t know if the op is among them but there are those who **consider themselves spiritual Jews **and believe in order to be a true Christian one must follow the Judaic customs that were practiced at the time of Christ. A modern variation of the Ebionites beliefs that were refuted at the Council of Jerusalem.

That includes communion distributed as a full passover meal male circumcision and adhering to old testament Mosaic laws as being necessary integral parts of the faith.

On the first bold…yes, I consider myself to be a spiritual Jew in the sense that I am brought near by the blood of Christ and able to have “citizenship” in spiritual Israel. Just as Ruth and Rahab were foreigners but brought in with full rights of citizenship into Israel by their faith.

Eph 2:11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh-who are called “uncircumcision” by the so-called “circumcision” that is performed in the body by hands-
Eph 2:12 that you were at that time without the Messiah, alienated from the citizenship of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who used to be far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, the one who turned both groups into one and who destroyed the middle wall of partition, the hostility, in his flesh,
Eph 2:15 when he nullified the law of commandments in decrees. He did this to create in himself one new man out of two, thus making peace,
Eph 2:16 and to reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by which the hostility has been killed.
Eph 2:17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near,
Eph 2:18 so that through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.
Eph 2:19 **So then you are no longer foreigners and noncitizens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of God’s household, **

Notice that the Gentiles are brought into and made citizens in God’s household of Israel. We don’t “replace” them. And I am a “spiritual” descendent of Abraham.

Gal 3:6 Just as Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,
Gal 3:7 so then, **understand that those who believe are the sons of Abraham. **
Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, proclaimed the gospel to Abraham ahead of time, saying, "All the nations will be blessed in you."
Gal 3:9 So then those who believe are blessed along with Abraham the believer.

Abraham doesn’t stop being Jewish, rather we are brought into Abraham’s lineage by faith.

believe in order to be a true Christian one must follow the Judaic customs that were practiced at the time of Christ

Follow the Judaic customs? No. But rather understand the roots of our faith and not impose meaning and liturgical and ritual aspects to the Lord’s supper that are pretty much foreign to the concepts Jesus was communicating in a Passover Seder.

We would have a better understanding of our faith, our Lord, and actually spur the Jews to jealousy as God intended if we had a love and fervency for the Hebraic roots of our faith. Thereby worshipping God in Spirit AND in truth for these are the type of worshippers God is seeking.

Joh 4:22 You people worship what you do not know. We worship what we know, because salvation is from the Jews.
Joh 4:23 But a time is coming-and now is here-when the **true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such people to be his worshipers. **
Joh 4:24 God is spirit, and the people who worship him **must worship in spirit and truth." **

“True worshippers”…“Must worship in spirit and truth”. Not options but commandments and exclusive statements.

Rom 11:11 I ask then, they did not stumble into an irrevocable fall, did they? Absolutely not! **But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make Israel jealous. **

Instead of spurring Israel to jealousy, we have spurred the Jews to hatred of us by our Judeo-phobia and anti-semitism resulting from centuries of eradicting anything that smacks of Jewishness from the faith.

Instead of Jews being encouraged to see the Messiah in their festivals, we’ve insisted that they, in effect, stop being Jews if they want to be Christians.

Paul never stopped being Jewish. He loved and desired to attend the feasts and festivals of the Lord. Just read Acts and see how many times he desires to get back to Jerusalem from his missionary journeys to celebrate the feasts. Not for legalistic righteousness sake like the Ebionites you mentioned, but rather to fully appreciate the Messiah to whom they pointed.

Can you look at the Spring and Fall feasts of Israel and explain how they pointed to Christ? If you can’t you are seriously missing on some real treasures of your faith.

This is what I am asking you to examine rather than automatically revert to and defending the comfortable and familiar.


#13

Ok, odd since I’m linking fine when I hit the address on my own post. But here’s some of the “relevant” info from it:

Passover symbolism in the Last Supper

Most Christians think of the last supper as more of a symbolic communion eucharist than a full festal meal. Given this we often miss out on the full meaning of the Passover and the additional meaning Jesus gave to it.

The gospel accounts of the last supper begin with the search for a venue and the lamb. However, the familiar terms paschal lamb and Passover lamb may mean different things. Paschô is Greek for ‘to suffer’ whereas pesach means ‘to pass over’, presumably pascha is a Greek transliteration of the Aramaic or Hebrew for ‘Passover’. Whether this was a wordplay or a linguistic mistake the association of the Passover lamb (Exodus 12) together with the suffering lamb (Isaiah 53) has stuck. Lambs for atonement for sin were also a part of Jewish practice.

The three lambs together signify: freedom through suffering as an atonement for sin

Paul cites Jesus as “our Passover” (1 Corinthians 5.7), the word ‘lamb’ is not in the Greek, for indeed the sacrifice could be a lamb or a kid.

We noted earlier that Judaism associates 4 or 5 cups of wine, not just one, with Passover. In Luke’s account of this supper the wine is taken at least twice, at the beginning and end of the meal. It is most likely that the last supper ‘cup’ of wine is to be associated with the third Passover cup, that of redemption (Exodus 6.6), associated with the coming of Elijah and eschatological expectation of the Messiah. “After supper” (1 Corinthians 11.25) the cup of red wine mixed with water would be taken and shared together from the same cup. It, like the sharing from one loaf, was symbolic of ‘togetherness’, freedom and fellowship in a covenant. The wine and water were later taken as symbolic of the blood and water that flowed from Jesus’ side. Mishnah, Berakoth, 7.5 cites the adding of water to wine in the time of Jesus.

The fourth cup, of consummation, Jesus declined to drink (Matthew 26.29; Mark 14.25; and Mishnah, Pesachim 10.7, “between the third and fourth cups he may not drink”) until his return and consummation of the kingdom. Thus redemption history had moved on from the exodus and into the realms of this new covenant(12), though it did not negate the Passover celebration for the Jews themselves, Jewish Christians now had additional reasons to celebrate on this auspicious occasion. Revelation 21 speaks of God finally taking us to be His people in the fullest possible sense of consummation and echoing Exodus 6.7 “And I will take you to Me for a people, and I will be to you a God”. …

In the end the Agape was forgotten and the eucharist became more formal, central and even ‘magical’ in the later doctrine of transubstantiation. The Passover symbolism is mostly lost on gentile believers. Jesus was the ultimate Passover [lamb] (1 Corinthians 5.7) and as such died with all his bones intact (cf. Exodus 12.46; Numbers 9.12; Psalm 34.20). **Jewish Passover is considered to be the ‘eating of history’ and the treasuring of freedom through education and enactment and is a joyful occasion, the church all too readily emphasizes the morbid death of Christ not his joyous resurrection or return. Indeed, 1 Corinthians 11.26 describes the purpose of the meal as proclaiming “the Lord’s death till he comes”. **

Part of the growing desire to bless and sanctify the eucharistic elements arose out of Hellenistic dualism. This saw the world divided between matter and spirit, secular and sacred, unholy and holy etc. Thus the material elements of bread and wine, and indeed the vessels themselves, required sanctification and blessing to make them holy, according to the Greek view. This process later spread to all kinds of relics and religious objects.

The Didache (10) probably has the earliest and most faithful eucharistic blessing which is directed toward God, not at the bread and wine, and sees an eschatological symbolism in its celebration, just as the New Testament says that the Lord’s death is proclaimed until He comes in the Eucharist.

Jesus and early Jewish Christians used a common Jewish blessing at mealtimes, along these traditional lines:

“Barukh attah Adonai Elohenu Melek ha-olam ha-motzi lechem min ha-arets”

(Translation) “Blessed are you, O Lord our God, King of the ages/universe, who brings forth bread from the earth”

“Barukh attah Adonai Elohenu Melek ha-olam borê’ p’rîy haggâphen”

(Translation) “Blessed are you, O Lord our God, King of the ages/universe, who creates the fruit of the vine”

In fact, much of the wording of blessings, graces and eucharistic prayers, particularly in the Didache, are Jewish in tone and content, indeed they “have almost word for word parallels in Judaism”.(15)

The Didache(16) was an early Christian teaching document otherwise known as the Teaching of the Twelve Apostles and possibly contemporary with the earliest of New Testament documents

That’s some of it, I don’t know if any more will fit in this post or not.


#14

SolaFide, if you were to read the words of the Pangia Lingua, written by St. Thomas Aquainas, you will find that the Lord had intended to institute a new covenant during the Passover. However, the Passover was the setting, not the actual ritual that Jesus intended to put forth as something immemorial.

Now, I understand about the four cups of the Passover. But, you forget one very important detail. Nowhere in the account of the Last Supper does it state that they were eating a lamb. Why? They were in the presence of the True Lamb of God. The Passover ritual prefigured what Jesus, himself, was about to do. Jesus, as the True Lamb of God, left the Holy Eucharist as his pledge and covenant for time immemorial.

Furthermore, if you read the accounts of the Agony in the Garden of Gethsemane, you will find that Jesus repeatedly asked the Father that this cup should pass from him. However, in the end, he submits Himself to the will of the Father. That “cup” is the fourth cup, the one of consummation. Jesus ultimately drinks this cup on the cross, when he says, “I thirst” and is given wine soaked in a sponge and hoisted to him in a hyssop. Remember that Ancient Israel used hyssop branches to paint the lintels of the doors with the blood of the passover lamb. After Jesus drank the bitter wine, he said, “It is consummated.” Then, he died.

With his death, Jesus completed the final act of the true Passover.

When I get home, I’ll put the relevant homily from Pope Benedict XVI regarding the Last Supper and Passover.


#15

Thus redemption history had moved on from the exodus and into the realms of this new covenant(12), though it did not negate the Passover celebration for the Jews themselves, Jewish Christians now had additional reasons to celebrate on this auspicious occasion. Revelation 21 speaks of God finally taking us to be His people in the fullest possible sense of consummation and echoing Exodus 6.7 “And I will take you to Me for a people, and I will be to you a God”. …

In the end the Agape was forgotten and the Eucharist became more formal, central and even ‘magical’ in the later doctrine of transubstantiation. The Passover symbolism is mostly lost on gentile believers. Jesus was the ultimate Passover [lamb] (1 Corinthians 5.7) and as such died with all his bones intact (cf. Exodus 12.46; Numbers 9.12; Psalm 34.20). **Jewish Passover is considered to be the ‘eating of history’ and the treasuring of freedom through education and enactment and is a joyful occasion, the church all too readily emphasizes the morbid death of Christ not his joyous resurrection or return. Indeed, 1 Corinthians 11.26 describes the purpose of the meal as proclaiming “the Lord’s death till he comes”. **

Part of the growing desire to bless and sanctify the eucharistic elements arose out of Hellenistic dualism. This saw the world divided between matter and spirit, secular and sacred, unholy and holy etc. Thus the material elements of bread and wine, and indeed the vessels themselves, required sanctification and blessing to make them holy, according to the Greek view. This process later spread to all kinds of relics and religious objects.

The Didache (10) probably has the earliest and most faithful eucharistic blessing which is directed toward God, not at the bread and wine, and sees an eschatological symbolism in its celebration, just as the New Testament says that the Lord’s death is proclaimed until He comes in the Eucharist.

Jesus and early Jewish Christians used a common Jewish blessing at mealtimes, along these traditional lines:

“Barukh attah Adonai Elohenu Melek ha-olam ha-motzi lechem min ha-arets”

(Translation) "Blessed are you, O Lord our God, King of the ages/universe, who brings forth bread from the earth"Boy, you must not have a clue about the Mass and the Eucharist. Look at what the Eucharistic prayers are in every single Mass.

[size=]Presentation of the Gifts / Preparation of the Altar:

Priest:  **Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this bread to offer, which earth has given and human hands have made. It will become for us the bread of life.**
All:  Blessed be God for ever.

“Barukh attah Adonai Elohenu Melek ha-olam borê’ p’rîy haggâphen”

(Translation) “Blessed are you, O Lord our God, King of the ages/universe, who creates the fruit of the vine”

Priest: Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this wine to offer, fruit of the vine and work of human hands. It will become our spiritual drink.

All: Blessed be God for ever.LITURGY OF THE EUCHARIST

In fact, much of the wording of blessings, graces and eucharistic prayers, particularly in the Didache, are Jewish in tone and content, indeed they “have almost word for word parallels in Judaism”.(15)

The Didache(16) was an early Christian teaching document otherwise known as the Teaching of the Twelve Apostles and possibly contemporary with the earliest of New Testament documents

Well duh…maybe you should know what you’re talking about before you attack a Catholic belief like that.

You are WAY off base this time.

It looks to me, based upon the New Testament and Christianity’s Jewish roots, that the Catholic Mass is right on target.:clapping: :dancing: :extrahappy: :tiphat: [/size]


#16

SolaFide,

It’s ironic that the points you are making are very Catholic in nature. Catholics understand very well the parallels between the Passover and Christ’s passion - much better than most non-Catholic Christians. That is why we are faithful to the Mass and why the Didache so closely matches today’s Mass.

You should read The Lamb’s Supper by Scott Hahn. I think it would give you some insight. Or, read his conversion story - *Rome Sweet Rome. *Dr. Hahn was a Presbyterian biblical scholar. His research into the Bible and the writings of the Church Fathers and his realization that Christ is present in the Eucharist (as He taught in John 6 and at the Last Supper) is what brought him to the Catholic Church.


#17

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