Communion in other kinds?


#1

I am posting this here rather than another section because I thought a wider variety of folks would have more information on it. Anyways, I happened on a Facebook discussion in which a few folks, who purport to be ELCA pastors, argued for administering the Lord’s Supper in other kinds than with bread and wine. A number of things were discussed. While this is troubling, these folks also claimed historic support for this, but did not cite any sources. Thus my question: has the Christian Church ever sanctioned the use of elements that contain no bread or no wine for the Supper?


#2

short answer: negative


#3

nd,
a couple of questions:
Irrespective of what these folks claim, what was/is your experience regarding this in seminary?
What were these folks suggesting using? And di they give a reason why?
And humorously, did they also suggest baptism using something other than water? :smiley:

Jon


#4

Not possible. Wheat bread and grape wine are the only permissible species.

If the Pope himself were to try and confect the Eucharist with anything else, it would not become the Body and Blood of Christ.

God Bless


#5

I’ve never heard of anything historically, and I’d doubt it greatly. The only possible example is some Protestants who use crackers and grape juice, but they don’t believe in the real presence so they don’t really set a precedent.


#6

The ELCA’s official policy is for only bread and wine to be used. My seminary did offer gluten free hosts and grape juice, however.

What were these folks suggesting using?

A few things that were used: Juicy Juice, Hawaiian Punch, grape juice, water, crackers, Goldfish crackers, Mountain Dew, beer, mead, barley wine.

And di they give a reason why?

Due to “emergency circumstances”.

And humorously, did they also suggest baptism using something other than water? :smiley:

Nope :slight_smile:


#7

@cholicks - I stated my question as such because there was mention of the medieval Church doing some of these thing. Also, I do know of circumstances where pastors will “fudge” on the bread and wine by mixing them with other things. I wanted to exclude such a practice from this thread.


#8

It is not a matter of permissible or not. The Church has determined, long ago and with authority, that these substances are the only ones for a valid Eucharist.

If the Pope himself were to try and confect the Eucharist with anything else, it would not become the Body and Blood of Christ.

And that is why the question is of validity rather than permission; the Pope can dispense with any law imposed by the Church, but the validity of the Eucharist is part of God’s law, given to us by Jesus’ example at the Last Supper, this is something that the Church could only determine the limits of, rather than actually change or abolish.


#9

To the OP:

This is a very dangerous situation. If they ever begin using things other than bread and wine (real bread and wine, mind you, if a “gluten-free” host has absolutely zero gluten, it is not bread) than this will lead to very serious abuses.

When you receive the Eucharist, you aren’t there for a snack, and it shouldn’t tingle your taste buds with sugar or salt. This is** Jesus Christ** you are receiving, and if you have to have Him flavored in order to feel right receiving Him, you shouldn’t be receiving at all.

Innovations like this are very dangerous and your concern is well founded. I’d suggest bringing this to the attention of your bishop.


#10

Friends use no bread or wine for “communion after the manner of Friends”. Christ is truly Present among us already, there is no nead to “confect” bread and wine for He is already present and we share communion together, with Him and each Friend joined in the Living Silence as we wait expectantly before Him.


#11

Hi,

I understand your views, and I agree that God is with us at all times, but we Catholics believe that in the Mass, and more specifically the Consecration, the bread and wine are transubstantiated into Jesus Christ. He gave this to us at the Last Supper.


#12

=ndismyhome;10030934]The ELCA’s official policy is for only bread and wine to be used. My seminary did offer gluten free hosts and grape juice, however.

So, the official policy is bread and wine (Iassume because that’s what Christ used), but a seminary decided it could do contrary the the Church body and scripture? My dad went to Philadelphia Mt. Airy. I bet they didn’t do that when he was there.

A few things that were used: Juicy Juice, Hawaiian Punch, grape juice, water, crackers, Goldfish crackers, Mountain Dew, beer, mead, barley wine.

IOW, let’s be contrary to the scripture and confessions.

Due to “emergency circumstances”.

I can’t think of an emergency circumstance that would require us to be contrary to His testament.

Nope :slight_smile:

Not yet, anyway. :stuck_out_tongue:

I hope you’re not buying into this.

Jon


#13

All true, but Christ did say to "do this (eat His flesh and drink His blood under the signs of bread and wine) in remembrance of Him.

Jon


#14

My personal belief is that God is present in whatever species is presented if it done with faith and proper intention. I can imagine communion done historically in terrible situations that would find all of us at least understanding the motivation.

However, teaching indicates that this is incorrect so I never will receive unless it is bread and wine. I trust in the good sense of my church more than my own sense.

Frankly, I don’t understand why anybody would want to introduce any novelty - wine and bread are humble enough for any modern church to procure.


#15

In that case there actually is an ancient precedent for using something else. The Didache allows for the use of sand when there is no water. :smiley:


#16

[quote="Nine_Two, post:15, topic:305385"]
In that case there actually is an ancient precedent for using something else. The Didache allows for the use of sand when there is no water. :D

[/quote]

That's actually true, haha! :rolleyes:


#17

Ben, somehow…this sounds very Catholic. :wink:


#18

[quote="Porknpie, post:17, topic:305385"]
Ben, somehow....this sounds very Catholic. ;)

[/quote]

It does!


#19

[quote="Nine_Two, post:15, topic:305385"]
In that case there actually is an ancient precedent for using something else. The Didache allows for the use of sand when there is no water. :D

[/quote]

You're going to need to provide a quote with a link or something, because I can find no reference to sand in the Didache or secondary sources commenting on it. In fact, Google didn't even know what I was talking about, and suggested "didache and baptism" when I asked for "didache sand baptism"


#20

[quote="Nine_Two, post:15, topic:305385"]
In that case there actually is an ancient precedent for using something else. The Didache allows for the use of sand when there is no water. :D

[/quote]

Indeed! Interesting story.

classicalchristianity.com/2012/03/19/the-incredible-story-of-a-baptism-with-sand/

Jon


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