Concernig saints


#1

I wanted to know if the declaration of a saint is an infallible declaration?

I posted this question in the AAA section, but didn’t get an answer.

So, if you know the answer - please, do say.

Thanks!


#2

Yes. The declaration is an authoritative statement of the Magisterium.


#3

Thanks!


#4

Certainly not, what word from man is infallible? None, it is only God’s… and God does not choose for us to bow to another, or venerate another of which He created…

As we know…

“For by grace are ye saved, through faith, and that not of your selves: it is the gift of God”

“But now in Christ Jesus, ye who sometimes were far off, are made nigh by the blood of Christ.”

“For through him we both have an access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners; but fellow citizens with the Saints, and of the household of God,”

                      Ephesians 2:8,13, and 18-19

God has already chosen his saints, it isn’t God’s Church or the Catholic Church which makes this decision. The Catholic Church doesn’t look at only those with faith… they look at ANY Catholic which lives a “good life” and has brought forth miracles when prayed to… How Catholics decide who is a saint and how God has chosen are two different paths… they are very distinct and easy to point out… They simply have this doctrine incorrect.

I have made emphasis on ANY Catholic because of a simple fact… over the years the Catholic Church has had it’s share of corruption as any denominational line of Christianity has… I’d say the ratio of saved verses those heathens which won’t be is around a pretty 1:3… saved is of course the lesser side. Again I’ll tell you, salvation is not limited to a single denominational line of Christianity, not Catholicism, not Lutheranism, nor any other form of Protestantism… If salvation was somehow based on denominational lines we’d all be dead, Christ didn’t want us all split up like this… it would be Christian or not… I don’t doubt that certain Catholics will be saved, I don’t doubt that certain protestants will be saved…

As you can note in my signature… it says few will be saved, not many… a denominational line cannot claim all or the majority of it’s members being receivers of salvation in this thought… it has nothing to do with being sinless, you can never be sinless, unless you are dead.

In summary… Only God can declare saints, He has already chosen them and does not wish us to honor them, nor pray to them… Any Church isn’t always reliable as its members can come in disguise and deceive others from the Church.


#5

Yes


#6

Then better toss out your bible, it might be unreliable too. Or, if God could assure that words written by men could be totally reliable, then God could assure that only people actually in heaven are declared by the Church to be saints.

Problem solved. I feel better now. :slight_smile:

Oh, and about him not wanting us to honor or ask those in heaven to pray for us, you’re just injecting your traditions of men (and rather grumpy men at that, I’d say). Who is worthy of honor (not worship, notice) if not those in heaven? You seem to have declared a war against honoring any person whatsoever.


#7

and God does not choose for us to bow to another, or venerate another of which He created…

ven·er·ate http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/premium.gif cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif (věn’ə-rāt’) Pronunciation Key
tr.v. ven·er·at·ed, ven·er·at·ing, ven·er·ates
To regard with respect, reverence, or heartfelt deference

So we shouldn’t respect one another?

Rom 13:7 Render to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor

hhon·or http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/premium.gif http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngcache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif/ˈɒnhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngər/[size=2]Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciationon-er]Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
*–noun *1.honesty, fairness, or integrity in one’s beliefs and actions: *a man of honor. *2.a source of credit or distinction: *to be an honor to one’s family. *3.high respect, as for worth, merit, or rank: *to be held in honor. *4.such respect manifested: *a memorial in honor of the dead. *5.high public esteem; fame; glory: *He has earned his position of honor. *6.the privilege of being associated with or receiving a favor from a respected person, group, organization, etc.: *to have the honor of serving on a prize jury; I have the honor of introducing this evening’s speaker. *7.Usually, honors. evidence, as a special ceremony, decoration, scroll, or title, of high rank, dignity, or distinction: *political honors; military honors. *8.(initial capital letterhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png) a deferential title of respect, esp. for judges and mayors (prec. by His, Her, Your, etc.). 9.**honors, **a.special rank or distinction conferred by a university, college, or school upon a student for eminence in scholarship or success in some particular subject. b.an advanced course of study for superior students. Compare [honors course](“http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=honors course”). 10.chastity or purity in a woman. 11.Also called [honor card.](“http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=honor card”) Cards. a.Bridge. any of the five highest trump cards, as an ace, king, queen, jack, or ten in the trump suit, or any of the four aces in a no-trump contract. Compare [honor trick](“http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=honor trick”). b.Whist. any of the four highest trump cards, as an ace, king, queen, or jack in the trump suit. 12.Golf. the privilege of teeing off before the other player or side, given after the first hole to the player or side that won the previous hole. *–verb (used with object) *13.to hold in honor or high respect; revere: *to honor one’s parents. *14.to treat with honor. 15.to confer honor or distinction upon: *The university honored him with its leadership award. *16.to worship (the Supreme Being). 17.to show a courteous regard for: *to honor an invitation. *18.Commerce. to accept or pay (a draft, check, etc.): *All credit cards are honored here. *19.to accept as valid and conform to the request or demands of (an official document). 20.(in square dancing) to meet or salute with a bow. *–adjective *21.of, pertaining to, or noting honor. —Idiomsonor[/size].

when we honor the saints we honor God crowning there glory.

And yes the church of God by virtue of being the Church of God has the right to declare who is a saint.


#8

I guess this is your infallible declaration on the matter?

Of COURSE the Church does not make this up independently of God. But there are ways to determine whether one of our forebears in faith has lived a life of heroic sanctity such that we CAN be certain that he or she has, indeed, found a place at the heavenly banquet. The process is lengthy, exacting and rigorous.

Considering that many Christians have absolutely no qualms about referring to ALL Christians as ‘saints,’ I find it perplexing when phantom objections, such as these, are raised when the Church recognizes that one of Our Lord’s heroes has won the wreath of glory in His Kingdom.

Honestly, if you knew how this process works, you would have spared yourself this lengthy effort.


#9

Here is the way sainthood is declared in the Catholic Church.

30giorni.it/us/articolo.asp?id=3664

God bless,
Ed


#10

Again I’ll tell you, God’s way of choosing saints is different than a Catholic’s way… Catholics choose based on “miracles” and “good deeds” Where who God chooses can based on anything at all, and He has chosen many based on faith alone, not miracles… The Catholic decision is off of their head, not inspiration. The Bible was an inspired work… and was not created off of the top of a person’s head.

If you need further explanation on the Catholic Church’s “infallible” decision making … =… The very first saints in the Catholic Church were canonized based on whether they became martyrs for the Church or simply public acclaim. Of course this again is opposing God’s initial choosing… Nowadays Catholics pray to dead Catholics for their intercession, and if a “miracle” occurs twice (or three times? I don’t remember) they are canonized and made worthy of veneration… this has relevance to falling prey to the ravening wolves mentioned throughout the Bible- it says demonic spirits can perform miracles as well, but know I am NOT accusing your saints of being demonic! They could be a great person in heaven for all I know.

The thing I am getting at with the mention of demonic miracles though… you pray to saints which is unbiblical, and being unbiblical or more like against it, shows a sinful nature… and demonic beings can take ADVANTAGE of you by performing these miracles, seeing as you are so susceptible to simple things like that. No offenses here though, I am sorry if I come across as such.


#11

I guess this is your way of discrediting other people’s beliefs?

The Bible teaches that all followers of Christ are saints, it’s not my teaching.

Also, how do you know that the Church does not make this up independently, other than your common belief that you are the True Church? Are you the Pope? Does the Pope get a list of names each month of people to venerate from God? It seems highly unlikely. Again, demons perform miracles too, and you seem to accept anyone whom you can attribute miracles to… Are all Catholics really that pure and without error? Has every single Catholic you prayed to REALLY gone to heaven? Since you believe in Purgatory, how do saints help you from purgatory? Are they not already caught up in other matters?

=\


#12

Suppose we have a Satanist… and this Satanist opposes God with all his heart… and walks around and gives unto charity… and this Satanist also has performed many miracles which may be seen as directly from God, perhaps he cured blindness or whatever… suppose he died in a tragic car accident one day… would you be at his funeral? Would you pray for his intercession? Would you honor him for his deeds on earth, besides opposing God? Would you honor him for THAT?! I wouldn’t, to honor him is to honor sin… and the funny thing is… he is just as us, we fail to keep God’s commandments which means we don’t love God- that breaks another commandment… perhaps they go hand in hand… so we all break the commandments, we all have put other things higher in value than God, even if we may not think of it… We will doubt it… but we still do…

So if we are just as this man, subtract the opposition of God… we are all sinners just as him and I beg you look even more into the Bible! Isaiah 64:6 … “But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags, and we all do fade as a leaf, and our iniquities like the wind have taken us away.”

Did you hear that? Our works are FILTHY RAGS! Do you honor filth? Do you honor the work of the devil? He brought sin into the world, and he stained us all with sin, we are all always working sins, do you also honor that? The Church has no decision in the matter of choosing saints, period.


#13

Are you suggesting that Catholics would honor a Satanist as a saint? You really do not know how the whole canonization process works. Trust me: You do not know how this works.

I wouldn’t, to honor him is to honor sin… and the funny thing is… he is just as us, we fail to keep God’s commandments which means we don’t love God- that breaks another commandment… perhaps they go hand in hand… so we all break the commandments, we all have put other things higher in value than God, even if we may not think of it… We will doubt it… but we still do…

And that makes a Satanist the same as a Christian?

So if we are just as this man, subtract the opposition of God…

In this scenario, the “opposition of God” is EVERYTHING, and it cannot be subtracted.

we are all sinners just as him and I beg you look even more into the Bible!

Right. I forgot. Catholics don’t know the Bible. Thanks for the reminder.

Isaiah 64:6 … “But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags, and we all do fade as a leaf, and our iniquities like the wind have taken us away.”

Did you hear that? Our works are FILTHY RAGS! Do you honor filth? Do you honor the work of the devil? He brought sin into the world, and he stained us all with sin, we are all always working sins, do you also honor that? The Church has no decision in the matter of choosing saints, period.

You seem to be putting things together that don’t go together. The canonization process involves rigorous discernment of spirits (y’know, as it says in Scripture). Miracles performed in life are not decisive in the process by any means. And, in fact, we DO have criteria by which to judge heroic sanctity: the Commandments, the Beatitudes, the fruits of a holy life . . .

I encourage you to learn what we really believe before you come at us, thrashing like a wild man, accusing us of spiritual insanity.

You seem to be of the persuasion that Catholics believe in “works righteousness.” Nothing could be further from the truth. But that belongs on another thread.


#14

Well, about faith alone… Just check James on that one. It’s a lot more clearer than Romans which is a sort of proto-theological epistle (by which I mean a systematized theology) and needs a lot more clarification than a catholic epistle, such as James. And James is very much clear on the matter.

But it seems that you have a very vague sense of what a saint in catholic terms is. I would invite you to study the catholic faith more.
It is not a perquisite for a saint to do miracles while alive (on this earth). So no, we don’t base the elections (rather to say, the magisterium doesn’t base the election) of saints on miracles.

As for praying to saints, just check Revelation 8, 2-5.

About such things being unbiblica - well I can just state that your interpretation of the Bible is unbiblical.
Nowhere in the Bible is it written that the Bible is sufficient as a single source.

So for that, it doesn’t have to be mentioned in the Bible.
But it is.

As for Demonic beings… Yeah, they can also take advantage of… say someone saying that praying to saints is wrong.


#15

Just as I may seem ignorant to your beliefs, you seem ignorant to mine.

In my belief, if you are under the law your works are considered righteousnesses, since you are no longer applicable to faith only salvation… Like I have said, you are being ignorant to me as you are not acknowledging the things I have said… The Satanist is just as the heathens in the Catholic Church, but moreso we are like him in that we don’t obey God’s Commandments, we don’t oppose God though, so we aren’t in similar belief. Again, if this Satanist might have proclaimed to be a Catholic, falsely portrayed the fruits of the spirit, and died after showing these miracles, what then? You would pray to him, what if more miracles occurred? It would be demonic, and that is my point… praying to a heathen Catholic (Not saying you ALL are heathens, just some, a minority) could bring forth demonic miracles, and you could falsely attribute and not knowingly honor filth. Opposition to God is a sin, and takes us from him just like any other.

Where do you get me saying that Catholics don’t read the Bible? I begged you would listen further and read the verse I mentioned, not that you won’t want to read the Bible.


#16

Well for someone so oppossed to “infallibility” you sure have appointed yourself judge and jury haven’t you.

Chuck


#17

Not a snarky question: Are you a native speaker of English?


#18

You really don’t have a clue about how the Chruch “chooses” saints do you?

Chuck


#19

Who are you to dispute God’s way of informing the Catholic Church of those whom He wishes it be known they are in heaven? Who are you to say that the Catholic Church does not receive inspiration?

Why do you think Catholics will listen to your opinions (picked up from the usual anti-Catholic sources, I suspect) as anything other than the standard “everything about the Catholic Church is wrong” blather?


#20

I’ve read the book of James several times thank you, I know what it says and what this man has taught, it doesn’t alter my beliefs.

“Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham beleeved God, and it was imputed vnto him for righteousnes: and he was called the friend of God. Ye see then, how that by workes a man is iustified, and not by faith only. Likewise also, was not Rahab the harlot iustified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without workes is dead also.”-James 2:22-26 (KJV1611)

Clearly works in this physical world prove your faith is alive (What is faith if you do not produce the fruits of the spirit? IF you truly have faith, the Holy Spirit dwells in you, and brings his glories (Again, the fruits of the Spirit))

If a man does not prove his faith to you by properly displaying his fruits: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance… then his faith is not alive in Christ… and is a false faith. Salvation is therefore… faith only.

Know also, you can not just “perform” these fruits to prove your faith, it has to come naturally, as it comes from the Holy Spirit, not you… if you have to perform these by yourself you know FOR YOURSELF that your faith is dead.

I like also how you deny other books of the Bible of being Christian? You believe some are Catholic and some are Protestant?


DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.