Condoms and AIDS deaths


#1

I don’t understand the non-Catholic media blaming the Church’s stance on condoms for AIDS deaths.

If someone is going to commit adultery and ignore the church on that, they are hardly going to worry about using a condom are they? So for a long time I thought there must be more to it than that. Briefly I thought of this scenario: that perhaps these people mean that if a man is working away from home and contracts AIDS through an adulterous affair then returns to his wife and infects her her infection and eventual death could be blamed on the Church’s teaching, but then I thought that through and it doesn’t convince. I have a (non Catholic) friend who is usually pretty good on these kind of ‘moral dilemmas’ but he was just as bad as the rest on this.

Can anyone explain how people can blame the Church’s stance on condoms for AIDS deaths?


#2

I’ve been trying to find an answer to this, myself. It seems to me what those who insist on blaming the Church for the AIDS pandemic really want is not just for the Church to change its teaching on condom use, but to actually PROMOTE the use of condoms-- loudly and often.


#3

With all my gripes with the Church and her leadership, here is where I’ll defend her directly.

I can blame the Church for causing certain undesirable side effects with her teachings on condoms, but definitely not AIDS.

We are bombarded with the “this could happen to you” nonsense that is completely self-contradictory with the “you cannot get it from anything but intimate contact – not even normal kissing” bandwagon. The “it could happen to you” aspect of it is weak already because realistically, how many heterosexuals – even adulterous ones – has anybody heard of who contracted AIDS? OK, maybe one or two from a blood transfusion from an infected gay.

Sorry but gays can’t blame the Church for being gay, and for getting gay diseases. There, I wrote it; gay diseases.

For those clods that wish to disprove me by naming a single counterexample, then they can read it as this: AIDS is a gay disease, rounded off to the nearest 10%.

This post is not about condemning gays. It is an observation of unarguable facts, which by ignoring or obfuscating like the politically correct do, nobody is served except the politicians.

Alan


#4

[quote=AlanFromWichita]Sorry but gays can’t blame the Church for being gay, and for getting gay diseases. There, I wrote it; gay diseases.

Alan
[/quote]

I’m no expert but I am certain that AIDS is not a ‘gay disease’. I think it may have spread in the west through homosexual promiscuity, but in global terms it effects many more heterosexuals than homosexuals


#5

[quote=juno24]I’ve been trying to find an answer to this, myself. It seems to me what those who insist on blaming the Church for the AIDS pandemic really want is not just for the Church to change its teaching on condom use, but to actually PROMOTE the use of condoms-- loudly and often.
[/quote]

Oh I see, that is very helpful to me, thanks Judy


#6

[quote=JohnW]I don’t understand the non-Catholic media blaming the Church’s stance on condoms for AIDS deaths.

If someone is going to commit adultery and ignore the church on that, they are hardly going to worry about using a condom are they? So for a long time I thought there must be more to it than that. Briefly I thought of this scenario: that perhaps these people mean that if a man is working away from home and contracts AIDS through an adulterous affair then returns to his wife and infects her her infection and eventual death could be blamed on the Church’s teaching, but then I thought that through and it doesn’t convince. I have a (non Catholic) friend who is usually pretty good on these kind of ‘moral dilemmas’ but he was just as bad as the rest on this.

Can anyone explain how people can blame the Church’s stance on condoms for AIDS deaths?
[/quote]

You have made an assumption here that I think explains your puzzlement. You talk about married individuals and adultery.

Those who want to promote condom use make no such distinction. Their agenda is for anyone (single or married) to have sex whenever they want, with whomever they want (same sex, opposite sex). This is at the root of why condoms are necessary in their mind.

Clearly, if two people remain chaste before marriage and faithful within marriage (and marriage is between opposite sexes) then condoms are irrelevant and AIDS or any other STD is not an issue.

It’s not about condoms, it’s about the so called “free love” ethos. If you do not view sex as an act that belongs in marriage, then contraception naturally flows from that viewpoint.

The agenda is to get the Church to change its teaching on all sexual mores.


#7

[quote=1ke]You have made an assumption here that I think explains your puzzlement. You talk about married individuals and adultery.

Those who want to promote condom use make no such distinction. Their agenda is for anyone (single or married) to have sex whenever they want, with whomever they want (same sex, opposite sex). This is at the root of why condoms are necessary in their mind.

Clearly, if two people remain chaste before marriage and faithful within marriage (and marriage is between opposite sexes) then condoms are irrelevant and AIDS or any other STD is not an issue.

It’s not about condoms, it’s about the so called “free love” ethos. If you do not view sex as an act that belongs in marriage, then contraception naturally flows from that viewpoint.

The agenda is to get the Church to change its teaching on all sexual mores.
[/quote]

I take your point 1ke, but my puzzlement is about how the Church can be blamed, so as the Church prohibits sex outside marriage it can hardly be culpable in those cases. I’m clear about that now


#8

In the west it’s definately primarily spread through the gay culture, but it’s definately not restricted there.

And the big controversy with the Church/Condoms/Aids is in Africa. Where the percentage with AIDS is HUGE!!! I doubt (i.e. Nigeria, Kenya) that with 5% infected with aids, that 5% is gay. (and even my married neighbor when I was young, had aids and fully hetero)

Some groups and media try to use this arguement: That using condoms would prevent the spread of aids if they all used them. And because the church doesn’t promote that, it keeps spreading. They see that as the only means of stopping it for some reason.

They seem to have a blind spot that they’re spreading aids because one person is sleeping with many people… (for 90% of the cases) I think the church is on the right path, that if they don’t sleep with a lot of people, that CAN’T spread it to a lot of people. Condoms aren’t even a guarenteed way of preventing aids. It’s still very possible. Condoms give a false sense of security that they can just go around and do whatever they like, and some studies have shown that with the promotion of condoms, AIDS has increased due to an increased sexual atmosphere.

I have to admit, that I have a hard time personally with the total ban, but the more I think about it, the more I realize they’re all for selfish reasons.
—>I DO want to have sex with my wife (when I get married :o) ) without the responsibilities.
—>I have a hard time having enough faith in God to make it all work, this is my lack of faith, and trying to put faith in myself to make everything work.

The more I ponder it, the more I respect the church’s teaching.


#9

[quote=JohnW]I take your point 1ke, but my puzzlement is about how the Church can be blamed, so as the Church prohibits sex outside marriage it can hardly be culpable in those cases. I’m clear about that now
[/quote]

The Church is blamed because they refuse to change their “outdated rules” (including its teaching that sex is appropriate only within marriage) to conform to society’s desire (to have sex at will) as opposed to Man changing his immoral behavior to conform to the Church.

The Church is blamed because Man does not want to conform his will to Christ’s. Original Sin.


#10

[quote=1ke]The Church is blamed because they refuse to change their “outdated rules” (including its teaching that sex is appropriate only within marriage) to conform to society’s desire (to have sex at will) as opposed to Man changing his immoral behavior to conform to the Church.

The Church is blamed because Man does not want to conform his will to Christ’s. Original Sin.
[/quote]

THAT was my puzzlement 1ke…they can’t have their cake and eat it…the Church says no sex outside marriage so they can’t ignore that and then blame the church for rejecting condoms


#11

[quote=1ke]The Church is blamed because they refuse to change their “outdated rules” (including its teaching that sex is appropriate only within marriage) to conform to society’s desire (to have sex at will) as opposed to Man changing his immoral behavior to conform to the Church.

The Church is blamed because Man does not want to conform his will to Christ’s. Original Sin.
[/quote]

The funny part, is that if they had followed the Church’s rules instead of their own desires those “outdated rules” could have saved their lives better than all the king’s technology and all the king’s men.

Alan


#12

[quote=JohnW]I’m no expert but I am certain that AIDS is not a ‘gay disease’. I think it may have spread in the west through homosexual promiscuity, but in global terms it effects many more heterosexuals than homosexuals
[/quote]

As AIDS spreads throughout the U.S., it would naturally grow in the heterosexual community if at all, especially once the rate among promiscuous gays (as opposed to chaste gays) begins to stabilize.

it would be interesting to write a computer program that modeled the communication of a virus, given various assumptions about the population’s makeup and behavior. I’d be surprised if such programs are not already in use at the U.S. Center for Disease Control among other places.

Alan


#13

[quote=1ke]The Church is blamed because they refuse to change their “outdated rules” (including its teaching that sex is appropriate only within marriage) to conform to society’s desire (to have sex at will) as opposed to Man changing his immoral behavior to conform to the Church.

The Church is blamed because Man does not want to conform his will to Christ’s. Original Sin.
[/quote]

This is exactly right. If you repeat a lie often enough, people will begin to believe it. It doesn’t even have to make sense, as with the condom issue.
Not to take the thread off-topic, but take any issue involving the Church, say ordination of women. If the MSM mentions it enough (they think), enough pressure will build against the Church’s position that she’ll have to change. Yes, they realize that the Church can’t change dogma or donctrine and still remain Catholic. That’s their point.
I’ve said this before; the secular elites in the U.S.,including the press, hate two entities: the Catholic Church and the police.
They hate the Church because she is the last true moral authoirity on earth. They hate the police because they are the civil authority. Most of them cut their teeth in the '60’s and '70’s when “Question Authority” was mantra and motto.
They don’t like authority because authority restricts what they see as their rightful free choice to do whatever they want whenever they want to do it…
For a truly frightening insight, read Architects of the Culture of Death.
So, they’ll keep hammering on the “arcane” ban on condoms and the priest scandals which happened because we have no women priests, ets, etc, etc. They’re trying to chip away one brick at a time, but it won’t work. Jesus said so.


#14

Uganda has had the best success in fighting the AIDS epidemic in Africa, with an emphasis on abstinence before marrige, and faithfulness within marriage; condom use is included in the program, but primary emphasis is given to abstinence and faithfulness. It has worked.

(It should also be mentioned that condom use does not protect against other venereal diseases, such as chlamydia and HPV.)

I had embarked on my research with, admittedly, a strong bias against the Catholic Church’s position. However, after I had numerous conversations about condom use with Ugandan priests dedicated to AIDS prevention, and I witnessed the receptiveness of so many community groups to faith-based HIV/
AIDS prevention programs, much of my cynicism about the Catholic Church’s anti-condom stance was dispelled.
I spent a weekend, for instance, with a Catholic AIDS awareness group called Youth Alive. In northern Uganda, where one out of seven adults has HIV/AIDS, I observed Youth Alive facilitators empowering 30 lively youths through small group discussions, role playing and skits to say “No to sex” and “I’m safeguarding my life against AIDS.”
northwestern.edu/magazine/northwestern/fall2003/studentlife/farrell.htm


#15

The way the civil world works… if too many people break the rules, then get rid of the rules.

Imaigne if enough people murdered often, too many to keep in the prisons or police. Then might as well let them get away with it than bother…

Is that the logic that makes sense to you? Would muder be acceptable if we simply get rid of an outdated rule that nobody follows?

Yet things on a smaller scale happen all the time… Too many people being promiscuous? Let’s not consider it taboo anymore… Can’t stop young boys from masturbating to pornography… let them… it’s psychologically healthy if they let it out… Too many people smoking marijuana? Decriminilize it! People have evolved from animals with animal instincts, we’re not special, we can’t control what we do…

For an analogy… the Church says violence against women is wrong… hey, too many men are abusing and beating the heck out of women… so the men get together and say, “C’mon your Holiness… we’re not gonna stop being violent to women… why don’t you get rid of that moral rule and allow us to provide women with padding and helmets so out violent acts wouldn’t be so bad… how about it? Let’s get with the times! Future science will make it all the more comfortable!”

Stupidity… utter stupidity…


#16

It is a myth that the spread of AIDS is due to those following the Church and not using condoms. We all know that obviously, these people are not following the churches rules on abstinance before marriage.

In Zimbawee, condoms are sold in the stores, freely accessible to everyone. Still, AIDS is rampant. Condoms are not reliable.

I am proud of the Catholic Churchs stance on no contracetives.

“Trying to stop AIDS with condoms is like trying to end murder with a bullet proof vest”.


#17

[quote=Kyenta]“Trying to stop AIDS with condoms is like trying to end murder with a bullet proof vest”.
[/quote]

They’re not even that good.

I remember from my public school sex-ed classes that condoms have a real-world failure rate against pregnancy that is as high as 17%. We all hear about the optimal failure rate as being 1 or 2%, but we don’t live in an optimal world. We live in the real world.

Now, if a woman is only fertile about 5 days out of the month, and the condom failure rate based on those five days alone is upwards of 17%, what does that imply about the failure rate against a disease that can be contracted every day of the month?

You do the math.


#18

Why do they charge the Church: becuase they want to. As has been mentioned here, individuals want the Church to change so that they do not have to. Sadly on this specific topic, death can be a imminent result, and one would like to hope that everywhere could acknowledge the immenence of death. And I was glad to see that other STDs have been brought up as some like HPV are spreading faster than AIDS.:frowning: I always bring this up when people talk about baby boomers and seocial security. We are going to have a lot of very sick indivudlas old **AND **young in 10-20 years unless a medical cure is found (or a mass miracle by God). Thanks and God Bless.


#19

[quote=slinky1882]Why do they charge the Church: becuase they want to.
[/quote]

Yes, believing is seeing.

That, and maybe they’re hoping to exact some $upport or $ympathy from the church.

Alan


#20

Heh, psst let me tell you a secret.

Most of that in Africa isn’t AIDS. Nope, not at all.
It’s from drinking tainted water, yup.

Here is how they define AIDS there: “prolonged fevers for a month or more, weight loss of over 10% and prolonged diarrhoea.”

Yea, not testing. It’s not AIDS, most likely TB or various waterborne parasites.

It’s a scam headed up by the U.N. (sterilization of undesiribles) and pharmaceutical companies (money).


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