Confused: Mary the savior of the roman people?


#1

Twice in Cardinal Ratzinger’s talk during the funeral of the Pope, the following was said:

and I pulled these directly from the vatican site.
vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/2005/documents/ns_lit_doc_20050408_messa-esequiale-jp-ii_it.html

Beata Virgo Maria, apostolorum Regina et Salus populi Romani, apud Deum intercedat ut vultum Filii sui benedicti Papæ nostro ostendat atque Ecclesiam luce resurrectionis eius consoletur.

Which translates into

Blessed Virgin Mary, Queen of Apostles and Savior of the people of Rome, Interceed for us to God …

and later

Sancta Maria, Salus populi Romani, ora pro eo

Which translates into:

Blessed Mary, Savior of the people of Rome, pray for us.

My question is when did Mary become the Savior?


#2

good question. it seems more and more, Mary is replacing Jesus. It used to be that Jesus was the Mediator betweem humans and the Father. Now we’ve added Mary as a mediator between man and Jesus, who then goes to the Father.


#3

[quote=gelsbern]Twice in Cardinal Ratzinger’s talk during the funeral of the Pope, the following was said:

and I pulled these directly from the vatican site.
vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/2005/documents/ns_lit_doc_20050408_messa-esequiale-jp-ii_it.html

Beata Virgo Maria, apostolorum Regina et Salus populi Romani, apud Deum intercedat ut vultum Filii sui benedicti Papæ nostro ostendat atque Ecclesiam luce resurrectionis eius consoletur.

Which translates into

Blessed Virgin Mary, Queen of Apostles and Savior of the people of Rome, Interceed for us to God …

and later

Sancta Maria, Salus populi Romani, ora pro eo

Which translates into:

Blessed Mary, Savior of the people of Rome, pray for us.

My question is when did Mary become the Savior?
[/quote]

Salvatrix is an ancient title for Mary. It’s nothing new. We speak of firemen saving people from a fire. We should not hesitate to speak of Mary saving people either. Mary is not less of a savior than a fireman! Mary saves not independently of God, but in union with Him. She is God’s handmaid as well as His mother and queen of His heart. So to speak of Mary as our Salvatrix does not detract from the fact that God is also, and in a more fundamental or ultimate way our Savior since any power that Mary has comes from Him, has its source in Him.

You should know that the Bible describes people other than God with the word “savior.”

I think your translation is not quite correct though. “Salus” means not savior but salvation. Hence we speak of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus – “Outside the Church, No Salvation

Maybe if you translate less literally it would translate the way you translated. Just a minor correction :slight_smile:


#4

[quote=UKcatholicGuy]good question. it seems more and more, Mary is replacing Jesus. It used to be that Jesus was the Mediator betweem humans and the Father. Now we’ve added Mary as a mediator between man and Jesus, who then goes to the Father.
[/quote]

When we want to give a pleasing gift to the Father, Mary first takes it and tidies it up, makes it all nice and clean, nicely wrapped. She makes it immaculate. Then she gives it the Father in union with Jesus, thanks to whom the gift is not only pure and immaculate, but also of infinite value (since He is an infinite, divine person).

I’m sure the saints who were spiritually wiser than I understood this better and explained it better. I am just explaining what I remember from what I was taught :slight_smile:


#5

[quote=tuopaolo]Salvatrix is an ancient title for Mary. It’s nothing new. We speak of firemen saving people from a fire. We should not hesitate to speak of Mary saving people either. Mary is not less of a savior than a fireman! Mary saves not independently of God, but in union with Him. She is God’s handmaid as well as His mother and queen of His heart. So to speak of Mary as our Salvatrix does not detract from the fact that God is also, and in a more fundamental or ultimate way our Savior since any power that Mary has comes from Him, has its source in Him.

You should know that the Bible describes people other than God with the word “savior.”

I think your translation is not quite correct though. “Salus” means not savior but salvation. Hence we speak of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus – “Outside the Church, No Salvation

Maybe if you translate less literally it would translate the way you translated. Just a minor correction :slight_smile:
[/quote]

Saviour, Salvation, plug in your translations,

Mary, Salvation of the Roman people, pray for us.

I don’t buy it, but fortunately I don’t need to for salvation’s sake. I honor Mary, and I do ask her to pray for me, but I refuse to give her status as co-redeemer. Again, I don’t need to for salvation.


#6

you’re right, Tuo. To be quite honest, I’ve had an emotional day today and it’s affected my faith. I’ve already had to apologize for a post on another forum. And so I humbly apologize now. I should have sought to understand before replying with some knee-jerk reaction. Fellow posters, please forgive me, and please pray for my faith. Holy Mary, Mother of God, please forgive my words against you. Lord Jesus, forgive me for insulting your Most Holy Mother. Thanks Tuo and fellow posters. God bless.


#7

[quote=UKcatholicGuy]you’re right, Tuo. To be quite honest, I’ve had an emotional day today and it’s affected my faith. I’ve already had to apologize for a post on another forum. And so I humbly apologize now. I should have sought to understand before replying with some knee-jerk reaction. Fellow posters, please forgive me, and please pray for my faith. Holy Mary, Mother of God, please forgive my words against you. Lord Jesus, forgive me for insulting your Most Holy Mother. Thanks Tuo and fellow posters. God bless.
[/quote]

It is okay we have to deal with all the fundamentalists that heard it now and we might need some assistance from Karl:nope: We know what is meant but they will ream us:mad:


#8

[quote=UKcatholicGuy]you’re right, Tuo. To be quite honest, I’ve had an emotional day today and it’s affected my faith. I’ve already had to apologize for a post on another forum. And so I humbly apologize now. I should have sought to understand before replying with some knee-jerk reaction. Fellow posters, please forgive me, and please pray for my faith. Holy Mary, Mother of God, please forgive my words against you. Lord Jesus, forgive me for insulting your Most Holy Mother. Thanks Tuo and fellow posters. God bless.
[/quote]

Well I am not anyone to forgive you as I am far from worthy to be able to offer any forgiveness being myself a miserable sinner :slight_smile:

I don’t know what you’ve gone through but if it’s interacting with anti-Catholics or something like that, sometimes the best thing to do is just to avoid interacting with them – at least for a while. We should stay away from anything that would lead us to doubt our faith or question God’s love.

Thanks for your blessing and may God bless you too :slight_smile:


#9

Greetings,

I do believe that particular invocation is in reference to an historical event where the city of Rome was saved from some [font=Arial]catastrophe [/font]through the intercession of the Blessed Virgin. I’m a little foggy on the details of the actual event though.

Pax.


#10

Salus doesn’t mean “saviour”; it means helper or deliverer. It’s badly translated…


#11

[quote=gelsbern] I honor Mary, and I do ask her to pray for me, but I refuse to give her status as co-redeemer.
[/quote]

Another term that is badly translated.

These concerns may be more issues of the translation into English. There is a reason why Orthodox Jews continue to study Hebrew–because some religious understandings don’t translate well from one language into another. In the rush to rid the Catholic Church in America of Latin, some of us were shortchanged of the proper understanding of Church teachings.

I also felt uncomfortable with the term “co-redeemer” until I read that English language has a different understanding of the prefix “co-” . In English we use the term for equals, but it did NOT in the original language, give Mary an equal status with Jesus.

If I ever get motivated, I’d like to learn Latin. My Catholic high school didn’t even offer it. My son studies Latin at his high school and just drilling him on the vocabulary words enlightens me.


#12

I was reading this book and the author said she loved Mary… collected little statues of her and put them all over her house. She prayed to her all the time. She went on to say that Jesus she had no time for… she felt He was always looking to strike her down. She seemed to be really into feminism and that’s why she liked Mary so much more - women’s power, that sort of thing.

So here’s my question, assuming nothing changes, that sort of devotion to Mary apart from Jesus, can’t be pleasing to God, can it?? Mary would NOT want someone so focused on her and not on her Son who is truly the Savior, correct? I think it’s OK to think about Mary, but only if those thoughts lead us to Jesus. Stopping at Mary just doesn’t seem right.


#13

Ex. 20: 4-5

I think that sums it up nicely.

Michael


#14

[quote=medjr]Ex. 20: 4-5

I think that sums it up nicely.

Michael
[/quote]

Catholics do not worship mary as an idol. She is the Mother of Our Lord Jesus Christ. I do say the rosary and ask her to intercede for me, but never once do I say I worship only you. I personally don’t get why everyone does not understand why Catholics have true devotions to Mary. She carried Jesus in her womb. She was truely the first tabernacle. Because of her FIAT the Lord Jesus was brought into this world. IF she was good enough for her son then she is good enough for me. He said on the cross “Behold your Mother…” She is our mother. I for one have no problem asking her to go to her son for me and to lead me to him. Our Savoir was brought into this world through her, so I see no problem with trying to get back to Our Savior through her.

God Bless, Kerri


#15

The original quote is a reference to a title of mary in Rome. It is not about salvation from sins, but about salvation of the city from physical danger.

I believe it originally refers to the intercession of Mary being effective in protecting the City from plague and from barbarian attack.

St Maria Maggiore contains a famous icon of this title


#16

[quote=carol marie] I think it’s OK to think about Mary, but only if those thoughts lead us to Jesus. Stopping at Mary just doesn’t seem right.
[/quote]

I think if she finds comfort in praying with Mary, and if she finds Jesus too imposing a figure, then I would ask: what’s the harm in that? If the choice for some people is (1) No Mary, No Jesus, No Church; or (2) Mary, but No Jesus (at least, not yet); then I would let them make the steps they can make today. Maybe tomorrow, they would be able to make the step beyond that.


#17

OK, guys: RELAX! Stelten’s Dictionary of Ecclesiastical Latin says that “salus” can mean “help.”

Whew! I was starting to have palpitations for a minute.


#18

[quote=gelsbern]Twice in Cardinal Ratzinger’s talk during the funeral of the Pope, the following was said:

Beata Virgo Maria, apostolorum Regina et Salus populi Romani, apud Deum intercedat ut vultum Filii sui benedicti Papæ nostro ostendat atque Ecclesiam luce resurrectionis eius consoletur.

Which translates into

Blessed Virgin Mary, Queen of Apostles and Savior of the people of Rome, Interceed for us to God …

and later

Sancta Maria, Salus populi Romani, ora pro eo

Which translates into:

Blessed Mary, Savior of the people of Rome, pray for us.

My question is when did Mary become the Savior?
[/quote]

Did it occur to you that they may very well be referring to an old prayer that was perhaps penned after someone had begged Mary’s intercession for the deliverance of Rome and that that is what they refer to…that she “saved” by her intercession?

I disagree that Mary is replacing Jesus as savior and I think you are unwise to even make such a statement . The Blessed Virgin is indeed a powerful intercessor, (Prayer warrior if you will), but that is as far as it goes. Unfortunately the statements you quote out of context would seem to lend credence to that misconception.

Personally, I don’t see how any Catholic that knows his faith could even come up with ieas like that. I sure wouldn’t have.
Pax vobiscum,


#19

Thanks mercygate, that makes much more sense. I think the guy on EWTN just mistranslated on the fly.

Blessed Mary, help of the people of Rome, pray for us. Does indeed make sense.

I suspected it was a matter of translation, but wasn’t sure.

Thanks again.


#20

[quote=gardenswithkids]Another term that is badly translated.

These concerns may be more issues of the translation into English. There is a reason why Orthodox Jews continue to study Hebrew–because some religious understandings don’t translate well from one language into another. In the rush to rid the Catholic Church in America of Latin, some of us were shortchanged of the proper understanding of Church teachings.

I also felt uncomfortable with the term “co-redeemer” until I read that English language has a different understanding of the prefix “co-” . In English we use the term for equals, but it did NOT in the original language, give Mary an equal status with Jesus.

If I ever get motivated, I’d like to learn Latin. My Catholic high school didn’t even offer it. My son studies Latin at his high school and just drilling him on the vocabulary words enlightens me.
[/quote]

Latin* is* great.(I didn’t :stuck_out_tongue: have much of a choice…My mother was the teacher!!)
Seriously, the amount of bad translations that I see makes me crazy. If I can spot them 40 years after my last Latin class, there is something seriously wrong…We all need to back up & consider our educational priorities.
Hence: I am delighted that your son is taking Latin!! If I could make it a compulsory subject for all college bound kids, I would. Even if you never use it again, as such, you will still read with better understanding, & learn other languages w/more ease…
(oops…:o I’m on a soapbox…)


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