Confused


#1

Just a few questions for everyone.

I was just wondering why the many “christian” churches of this world don’t feel that they have to keep Gods laws. And why is it that they twist Gods laws around to fit their needs or add things to his word whenever it suits them.

i.e. the sabbath. God clearly states that the sabbath is on the seventh day. Last time I checked the seventh day was saturday not sunday. SOmeone show me whaere God changed the sabbath day to Sunday.

Gods Holy Days. How is it that the “christian” churches of this world celebrate pagen holidays like christmas and easter which were created by men but fail to keep Gods Holy Days such as Pentacost, the Day of atonement or the Feast of Trumpets.

The list goes on and on. Clean and unclean foods, Though shall have no other Gods befor me (i.e. the Pope),

Please answer tell me why the churches of this world continue do do thing so contrary to the Bible.
Plaese prove your points using the bible. If it can’t be proved from the bible it means nothing.

Dave


#2

Haven’t you heard the Good News? :slight_smile:

Jesus didn’t write a book, he founded a Church - and the powers of death (gates of sheol) have **not **prevailed against it!

Thank you, God!

Elizabeth


#3

Do you follow sola scriptura, and if you do were does it say that in the Bible? And how do you know that the sabbath day is on Sat? Did they have a calender back then? Christmas and Easter are not pagan holidays, they were celebrated in conjuction with pagan holidays.

Oh yeah, is not Monday the first day of the week which would make let me see Sunday the 7th. :hmmm:

And as far as the Pope goes, Catholics know that he is not God, He is a instrument of God as are all of us. The difference between the Pope and us is that he has the powers of God which was given to Peter the first Pope, the Rock of the Church. And who gave Peter that power lets see, could it be Jesus? Trust me it’s in the BIble.


#4

[quote=Luke 4:4]Just a few questions for everyone.

I was just wondering why the many “christian” churches of this world don’t feel that they have to keep Gods laws. And why is it that they twist Gods laws around to fit their needs or add things to his word whenever it suits them.

i.e. the sabbath. God clearly states that the sabbath is on the seventh day. Last time I checked the seventh day was saturday not sunday. SOmeone show me whaere God changed the sabbath day to Sunday.

Gods Holy Days. How is it that the “christian” churches of this world celebrate pagen holidays like christmas and easter which were created by men but fail to keep Gods Holy Days such as Pentacost, the Day of atonement or the Feast of Trumpets.

The list goes on and on. Clean and unclean foods, Though shall have no other Gods befor me (i.e. the Pope),

Please answer tell me why the churches of this world continue do do thing so contrary to the Bible.
Plaese prove your points using the bible. If it can’t be proved from the bible it means nothing.

Dave
[/quote]

It seems that you are captivated by the letter of the law, as opposed to the spirit of the law. After all, man was not created for the Sabbath, but the Sabbath was created for man. Whatever His church declares it to be is good enough for me, and, based on the paraphrased quote above from Jesus, something tells me that it is good enough for Him, too. If the only thing which distinguishes your faith is this constant whining about the sabbath (forgive me, if you are not the same person who was banned earlier on a similar thread), then I think I will make sure to steer clear of your denomination in the future. You’re a one-song jukebox, my friend…


#5

catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9902fea1.asp

Excerpts from the article:

Though the Gospels report that Jesus observed the Sabbath, there are several incidents where he is accused of violating Sabbath law (Jn. 9:16, Jn 7:23, Mk. 3:4). It is interesting that in various passages the Lord restates all of the decalogue except for one commandment. “And Jesus replied, You shall not kill, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not bear false witness, honor your father and mother, and you shall love your neighbor as yourself” (Mt. 19:18–19). “It is written: ‘The Lord your God shall you worship, and him alone shall you serve’” (Mt. 4:10). Finally, “But I say to you, do not swear at all; not by heaven, for it is God’s throne” (Mt. 5:34). The commandment Jesus didn’t restate? To keep holy the Sabbath.

Our Lord defends his disciples when the Jews attacked them for not observing the Sabbath, ending his comments by saying: “For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath” (Mt. 12:1–8). Or again, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath” (Mk. 2:27). The fact that Jesus rebukes too severe an interpretation of Sabbath law (Lk. 13:10–16, 14:1–5; Jn. 5:9–18, 7:22) suggests that the he was not pleased with the way that the Sabbath was being observed.


#6

[quote=Writer]It seems that you are captivated by the letter of the law, as opposed to the spirit of the law. After all, man was not created for the Sabbath, but the Sabbath was created for man. Whatever His church declares it to be is good enough for me, and, based on the paraphrased quote above from Jesus, something tells me that it is good enough for Him, too. If the only thing which distinguishes your faith is this constant whining about the sabbath (forgive me, if you are not the same person who was banned earlier on a similar thread), then I think I will make sure to steer clear of your denomination in the future. You’re a one-song jukebox, my friend…
[/quote]

I assure you this is my first post ever on this forum. I am not this other person who was banned.

“Whatever His church declares it to be is good enough for me,”

A very interesting statement. How are you sure that your church is the true church. I assume you are catholic. Where does the Bible say that the catholic church is the true church. The church is not a corporate structure but the group of people who follow his laws. Luke 4:4 tells us that we must live by EVERY word of God. How is it then that so many churches only live by SOME words of God?


#7

[quote=On my way]Do you follow sola scriptura, and if you do were does it say that in the Bible? And how do you know that the sabbath day is on Sat? Did they have a calender back then? Christmas and Easter are not pagan holidays, they were celebrated in conjuction with pagan holidays.

Oh yeah, is not Monday the first day of the week which would make let me see Sunday the 7th. :hmmm:

And as far as the Pope goes, Catholics know that he is not God, He is a instrument of God as are all of us. The difference between the Pope and us is that he has the powers of God which was given to Peter the first Pope, the Rock of the Church. And who gave Peter that power lets see, could it be Jesus? Trust me it’s in the BIble.
[/quote]

I have no idea what sola scriptura is. I follow the Bible.
The Sabbath.
bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.showResource/CT/HWA/k/695
Christmas
bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.showResource/CT/HWA/k/464
Easter
bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.showResource/CT/HWA/k/465

Not sure about you but every calender I’ve ever seen says that sunday is the first day of the week. Which calender are you refering to?
bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.showResource/CT/HWA/k/457

As far as peter being the first Pope. How bout you show me where it says this in the bible. Where does it say that the Pope has the powers of God. Why do people refer to the Pope as the Holy Father. The Holy Father is God.


#8

[quote=Luke 4:4] Luke 4:4 tells us that we must live by EVERY word of God.
[/quote]

But it doesn’t say we must live ONLY by the written word of God, or ONLY by scripture, or ONLY by the word - in fact there is nothing at all that intimates that the Bible suffices all.

How is it then that so many churches only live by SOME words of God?

Maybe because Martin Luther discarded so many books of the Bible when he began his deformation?

Maybe because so many generations of protestant Christians have never heard the fullness of the original scriptures? (and that’s just counting the canonized word here - there’s a much deeper deficit when you consider all of the writings of the early historians and church fathers :frowning: )

Maybe because so many churches are so determined to disprove Catholicism that they will stoop to even re-writing Holy Scripture to suit their purposes?

Elizabeth


#9

[quote=ElizabethJoy]Haven’t you heard the Good News? :slight_smile:

Jesus didn’t write a book, he founded a Church - and the powers of death (gates of sheol) have **not **prevailed against it!

Thank you, God!

Elizabeth
[/quote]

So your saying that the Bible is not the directly inspired word of God? Your saying that God founded a church so this means we just beleive everything the church says and forgett everything the bible taught us?
That doesn’t sound quite right to me.

Dave


#10

Luke 4:4 tells us that we must live by EVERY word of God. How is it then that so many churches only live by SOME words of God?

Here is what Luke 4:4 teaches us Catholics:

4 And Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone.’” -Luke4:4

Catholics accept this 100%. We also accept the many passages of the Last Supper where Jesus says:

48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh." 52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. -John6
We follow the Bible right here when we receive Communion, which is not a mere symbol but the flesh and blood of Jesus, if someone doesnt partake properly (ie degrading it to only a symbol or only a memorial) then they have no life in them.

Also it says that more than just Believing is what saves, ie not faith alone, in Mark16:16 Jesus said, “He who believes and is baptized will be saved”, notice itsnot simply saying “I Believe” which is not acceptable. So why do all those Bible believing people out there not do what the Bible says?


#11

[quote=ElizabethJoy]But it doesn’t say we must live ONLY by the written word of God, or ONLY by scripture, or ONLY by the word - in fact there is nothing at all that intimates that the Bible suffices all.

Maybe because Martin Luther discarded so many books of the Bible when he began his deformation?

Maybe because so many generations of protestant Christians have never heard the fullness of the original scriptures? (and that’s just counting the canonized word here - there’s a much deeper deficit when you consider all of the writings of the early historians and church fathers :frowning: )

Maybe because so many churches are so determined to disprove Catholicism that they will stoop to even re-writing Holy Scripture to suit their purposes?

Elizabeth
[/quote]

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

You seem to think I am talking only about protestant and catholic churches but I am refering to the Catholic church as well. The Catholic church has also done rewriting of the scripture.


#12

[quote=Luke 4:4]I have no idea what sola scriptura is. I follow the Bible.
[/quote]

That’s one of the funniest things I’ve heard!

[quote=Luke 4:4]As far as peter being the first Pope. How bout you show me where it says this in the bible.
[/quote]

You are Kephas, and upon this Kephas I will build My Church.

[quote=Luke 4:4] Where does it say that the Pope has the powers of God. Why do people refer to the Pope as the Holy Father. The Holy Father is God.
[/quote]

***And to you, I will give the keys to the kingdom. What you bind on earth is bound in heaven, what you loose on earth is loosed in heaven. ***

Would God let a falsehood in heaven? Of course not. So he sent us the Paraclete to make sure we don’t teach any falsehoods on earth, because they would be bound in heaven, also.

[quote=Luke 4:4]I follow the Bible.
[/quote]

Show me where in the Bible it says to just “follow the Bible”. Aren’t we supposed to adhere to what we’ve been taught by word of mouth?

Thanks,

NotWorthy


#13

[quote=Luke 4:4]So your saying that the Bible is not the directly inspired word of God? Your saying that God founded a church so this means we just beleive everything the church says and forgett everything the bible taught us?
That doesn’t sound quite right to me.
[/quote]

Hmmmm… what you say doesn’t sound quite right to me, either. :hmmm:

In fact, it’s quite definitely incorrect on all counts. :yup:

Maybe you’d like to make a few corrections to it before you turn it in? :slight_smile:

Elizabeth


#14

[quote=Catholic Dude]Here is what Luke 4:4 teaches us Catholics:

4 And Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone.’” -Luke4:4

Catholics accept this 100%. We also accept the many passages of the Last Supper where Jesus says:

48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh." 52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. -John6
We follow the Bible right here when we receive Communion, which is not a mere symbol but the flesh and blood of Jesus, if someone doesnt partake properly (ie degrading it to only a symbol or only a memorial) then they have no life in them.

Also it says that more than just Believing is what saves, ie not faith alone, in Mark16:16 Jesus said, “He who believes and is baptized will be saved”, notice itsnot simply saying “I Believe” which is not acceptable. So why do all those Bible believing people out there not do what the Bible says?

[/quote]

Communion is a Catholic tradition. Plain and simple. Where does the bible teach us to have communion as part of our sabbath worship? It doesn’t. This is something that the catholic church has created for themselves.

“So why do all those Bible believing people out there not do what the Bible says?”

Why do all the Catholic people out there not do what the bible says?


#15

[quote=Luke 4:4]Communion is a Catholic tradition.
[/quote]

:smiley: So is the Bible!

As for Communion of the Holy Eucharist, YES! :yup: Exactly as taught by the Lamb, Himself!

Thanks be to the Lord Jesus Christ!

Elizabeth


#16

Dave,

Sunday is not the Sabbath. Sunday is the day that Christians have used since the beginning of Christianity to celebrate Christ’s rising from the dead. The sabbath is a whole other topic. To answer your question about why we don’t observe the sabbath, read Col 2 2:13-17 for a start.

As for Christmas and Easter, what difference does it make that they happen to be celebrated on the same day as some pagan holiday. The Christians were celebrating the birth and resurrection of Christ while the pagans celebrated their holidays. To the best of my knowledge, the pagan holidays have ceased to exist.

If you want the Bible verse that refutes the need to stay away from unclean food, take a look at Acts 10 9-16.

Your comment about the Pope hardly warants a response. Catholics do not worship the Pope. He is simply Christ’s successor here on earth.

Joe


#17

[quote=Luke 4:4]Communion is a Catholic tradition. Plain and simple. Where does the bible teach us to have communion as part of our sabbath worship? It doesn’t. This is something that the catholic church has created for themselves.

[/quote]

How did Jesus start the Last Supper? “I have anxiously awaited to share this with you”. He then proceeded with the Passover, which consisted of:

  • Readings from Scriptures
  • Singing of the Psalms
  • Breaking of the Bread
  • Drinking of the Wine

Sounds a lot like the Mass to me?

What was the first thing Jesus did after His Resurrection on the road to Emmaus?

  • Discussed and Interpreted the Scriptures
  • Broke the Bread

Sounds like the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist (i.e. the Mass to us Catholics).

What did the Apostles do all through Acts? They broke the Bread (Hmm, sounds like communion)

Listen to St. Paul. He exhorts us to partake in the eating of the body and drinking of the blood; to discern that it is the Body of Christ that we are eating. There are numerous other references to the Eucharist.

On a final note: The Early Christians had their Mass on Sundays because they most often shared the Jewish Temples with the Jews (which they still felt they were for several decades). The Jews would celebrate their services on Saturday evening, as tradition dictated. So the Christians were forced to read from the Liturgy of the Word on Sunday Morning. They would then regroup in someone’s home and celebrate the Liturgy of the Eucharist, only with those worthy and able to partake in the communion.

NotWorthy


#18

[quote=Luke 4:4]Communion is a Catholic tradition. Plain and simple. Where does the bible teach us to have communion as part of our sabbath worship? It doesn’t. This is something that the catholic church has created for themselves.
[/quote]

So when something is recorded in all 4 gospels as something Jesus commanded us to do it is a Catholic tradition??
The argument on if its to be done on the Sabbath or not is beside the point. Rather the point is that we are to partake as Jesus commanded, plain and simple.

p.s. Whats did you think about my Mk16 part?

p.s. just wanted to add this:

How did Jesus start the Last Supper? “I have anxiously awaited to share this with you”. He then proceeded with the Passover, which consisted of:

  • Readings from Scriptures
  • Singing of the Psalms
  • Breaking of the Bread
  • Drinking of the Wine

Sounds a lot like the Mass to me!!!


#19

[quote=Catholic Dude]So when something is recorded in all 4 gospels as something Jesus commanded us to do it is a Catholic tradition??
The argument on if its to be done on the Sabbath or not is beside the point. Rather the point is that we are to partake as Jesus commanded, plain and simple.

p.s. Whats did you think about my Mk16 part?

p.s. just wanted to add this:
[/quote]

What jesus commanded us to do was keep the passover. Not keep Mass. Who cares if you are doing these things if they are not being done on the correct day. God gave us a time for these things to be done. He didn’t say to just do them whenever we feel like it.

I agree with you 100% on the mk16 part. Saying “I beleive in God” means absolutely nothing if you don’t follow his laws. If someone beleives on God then they must also believe that the bible is his word. God can not lie or make a mistake therefor his commands in the bible are clearly the way he wants us to live.

This does sound like mass but owhere does God tell us to keep it as mass. It clearly says that he proceeded with the passover. NOt that he proceeded with mass.


#20

I have really enjoyed reading this thread. One thing is very obvious: Luke is not confused - his mind is already made up. The rest of you are just trying to confuse him with facts.


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