Conpiracies


#1

Just an FYI before I start, I recently got banned from AngelQueen.org for posting some messages similar to this.

I’ve been in the Church for almost 11 years, and I had a period where I was interested in extreme Traditionalism, but I rejected it for lots of reasons. I decided, mainly, that people who reject VII outright are putting themselves above the Church as an authority and I could not join them, and I was also turned off by the craziness.

By craziness, I mean the conspiracy theories about Communists and Masons and One World Goverments and the Trilateral Commission etc.etc.etc.

I was embarased to be around the traditionalist community in my area because this type of stuff appeared to interest them as much as the faith did.

My opinion is that people who believe in such craziness are a blight upon Traditional Catholicism and will do nothing but delay the neccessary process of bring more authentic Catholic tradition back into diocesan Catholicism.

Thoughts?


#2

Some do tend to shoot themselves and each other in the foot when they take up claims of anonymous sources.


#3

While I don’t mention any specific conspiracy theory, to write all “conspiracies” off (not referring to those about the Church…) as if they don’t happen really is fooling one’s self.


#4

If I can drag a stranger into the conversation, please look at what God through the Prophet Isaiah (Chapter 8) said about conspiracy theories:

11 For the LORD spoke thus to me with a strong hand, and instructed me that I should not walk in the way of this people, saying:
12 “ Do not say, ‘A conspiracy,’
Concerning all that this people call a conspiracy,
Nor be afraid of their threats, nor be troubled.
13 The LORD of hosts, Him you shall hallow;
Let Him be your fear,
And let Him be your dread.


#5

Are you sayin that Alta Vendita is just a rumor?
catholicvoice.co.uk/dillon/text.htm#14

Are you saying that Pope Leo XIII encyclical on Freemasonry is a rumor?
papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13human.htm

Are you saying that Pascendi-doctrine of the modernists is a rumor?

papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10pasce.htm


#6

I’m saying that it’s stupid to rely on an un-named nurse who had an-unnamed patient who supposedly was a Communist infilltrating the Church.

I’m saying that it’s stupid to say that the then Cardinal Ratzinger, et. al. is lying about the “Third Secret”.

I’m saying it’s stupid to claim that Mason’s rule the Vatican.

So, I’d appreciate it if you don’t try and claim that I’m trying to deny a teaching of the Pope. That would be yet another conspiracy theory.:rotfl:

The EF/TLM is a beautiful Mass and it’s very sad when someone who’s attracted to it doesn’t want to go there because of the atmosphere created by some. It doesn’t help the spread of the TLM when one want to go because of the beauty of the Mass and get’s bombarded with lunacy.


#7

I think, for me, the real deal-breaker is the Masonic thing. I got booted from AQ (I think) for demanding proof of even one Masonic plot against the Vatican.

If one disbelieves in the continuing malevolent, powerful Masonic influence, someone always accuses them of disbelieving Church teaching. That is, specifically, the kind of damaging craziness I mean. It is not a dogma of the Church that the Masons are still powerful.

This sort of thing really gets me down, because it doesn’t affect rank-and-file diocesan Catholicism. Only traditionalists seem to fall prey to this stuff. It’s like they carry the encapsulated, preserved 1950’s around with them…which has nothing to do with the faith.


#8

**I think, for me, the real deal-breaker is the Masonic thing. I got booted from AQ (I think) for demanding proof of even one Masonic plot against the Vatican.

If one disbelieves in the continuing malevolent, powerful Masonic influence, someone always accuses them of disbelieving Church teaching.**

According to some arch-Protestant polemicists, it’s not just a Masonic conspiracy. It’s a Vatican-Masonic conspiracy.

And then there are those who say it’s some combination of Zionist-Communist-Vatican-Masonic conspiracy. (Pick your favorite 2 or 3.)


#9

I totally agree. I became interested in some of the Fatima conspiracies, VII conspiracies, etc last year and became so disturbed both spiritually and emotionally that I had to stop questioning. I’m not saying there aren’t some truths to what they are claiming, but to dwell on such things is usually not motivated by love of Christ. The devil would probably love for us to occupy ourselves with conspiracies instead of spending our time in prayer, spiritual reading, etc.

My personal solution is to embrace traditional spirituality, trust and love God, and ignore all the people that devote their lives to bitter finger pointing. We should be focused on our own repentance and becoming pure in heart. Prayer and penance will make the Church a lot stronger than mass paranoia ever will.


#10

My personal solution is to embrace traditional spirituality, trust and love God, and ignore all the people that devote their lives to bitter finger pointing. We should be focused on our own repentance and becoming pure in heart. Prayer and penance will make the Church a lot stronger than mass paranoia ever will

:blessyou:


#11

Whenever you find yourself overwhelmed by doubt stemming from the conspiracy theories propagated by some of these people, just smile and say “ex opere operato.” The conspiracy theorists I’ve met all tend to be Donatists. Sorta ruins their credibility.


#12

My personal solution is to embrace traditional spirituality, trust and love God, and ignore all the people that devote their lives to bitter finger pointing. We should be focused on our own repentance and becoming pure in heart. Prayer and penance will make the Church a lot stronger than mass paranoia ever will.

:amen:

God promised His church would be with us to the end of times. No matter how strong the Masons/communists/athiests/whoeverelse get, God is always stronger and He will not let His church be taken over.

To fear that some group controls the Pope is to deny that God will guide the Pope.

:heart:


#13

But there are some facts that cannot be denied.The secret papers of the Alta Vendita that fell into the hands of Pope Gregory XVI embrace a period that goes from 1820 to 1846. They were published at the request of Pope Pius IX by Cretineau-Joly in his work The Roman Church and Revolution. With the brief of approbation of February 25, 1861, which he addressed to the author, Pope Pius IX guaranteed the authenticity of these documents,
Pope Leo XIII was greatly concerned about Freemasonry, Pope Pius X was greatly concerned about the Modernists. Pope Paul for some unknown reason **did abolish **the *Oath against Modernism *in 1967 Father Annibale Bugnini was suddenly, after 11 years as secretary of the Commission on the Liturgy , removed from that position and sent to Iran
It was these conspiracies that caused Archbishop Lefebvre to be relieved of his priestly duties.Father Bugnini who is most responsible for the New Mass wrote this in his book Reform of the Liturgy
Pg –91-92 . “Toward the end of the summer a cardinal who was usually no enthusiast for liturgical reform told me of the existence of a “dossier” which he had seen on [or brought to?] the Pope’s desk and which proved that Archbishop Bugnini was a Freemason…the charge was absurd, a malignant calumny…I have never had any interest in Freemasonry: I do not know what it is, what it does, or what its purposes are.”

Footnote PG 281. March 1976 “Archbishop Lefebvre wrote…When we learn in Rome that the man who has been the soul of the liturgical reform is a Mason, we may think he is not the only one. The veil covering the great mystification that has been worked on clergy and faithful is undoubtedly beginning to lift”

Pg 294-295 “The opposition became more serious and worrisome, however when Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre became its champion. All attention was focused on him…a period of disobedience and opposition began…in the “manifesto” or profession of faith that *Archbishop Lefebvre issued on November 21, 1974…*he states his refusal to heed, “the Rome that has clearly shown itself to be neo-Modernist and neo-Protestant in tendency at Vatican II and in all the postconciliar reforms…these reforms have helped and are still helping to demolish the Church, ruin the priesthood, destroy the sacrifice and sacraments…No authority, even the highest in the hierarchy, can force us to abandon or water down our Catholic faith that has clearly expressed and professed by the magisterium of the Church for nineteen centuries…we choose what has always been taught, and we close our ears to the destructive novelties now found in the Church…the new Mass is matched by a new catechism, a new priesthood, new seminaries…this reform which derives from liberalism and Modernism, has poisoned everything: it is born of heresy and ends in heresy, even if all of its acts are not formally heretical. It is therefore impossible for a conscientious, believing Catholic to accept this reform and submit to it in even the smallest degree. The only response possible for those who are faithful to the Church and Catholic teaching and who wish to be saved is a categorical rejection of the reform”…Thus began the disobedience, the public demonstrations, the protest celebrations, the ordination of priests, and the resultant suspension of Archbishop Lefebvre from his priestly functions”

Archbishop Lefebvre was willing to put his soul on the line for his beliefs. He clearly did not dismiss the “conspiracy theories”


#14

I found an article on wikipedia.org about Modernism within the Church. In the middle of its description of the heresy, it also gives a nice short account of the nature of all the traditional forms of heresy that have existed within the Church and the basic pattern by which they have tended to express themselves.

The final overall teaching of Modernism, is that dogmas (what is taught by the Church and what its members are required to believe) can evolve over time, rather than being the same for all time. This aspect of thought was what made Modernism unique in the history of heresies in the Church. Previously, a heretic (someone who believed and taught something different from what the rest of the church believed) would either claim that he was right and the rest of the church was wrong because he had received a new revelation from God, or that he had understood the true teaching of God which was previously understood but then lost. Both of those scenarios almost necessarily led to an organizational separation away from the Church (schism) or the offender being ejected from the Church (excommunication).

The link is here:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modernism_%28Roman_Catholicism%29#Evolution_of_dogmas

Ring any bells? Lefebvre falls within the second category, the one I’ve bolded. He behaved like a heretic himself just as much as the modernists he was trying to counter did. My point is that Lefebvre basically followed a pattern of heresy that has repeated itself over and over again throughout the Church’s history. His arguments seem to lose their effect and legitimacy when viewed in this light.


#15

Again, with the Masonic conspiracies.

I have a lot of sympathy for Abp. Lefevbre, but I also think he became somewhat of a paranoid kook in the 70’s. One thing I thikn this period of crazy heretical hogwash since the council has taught us is that it doesn’t take a Masonic conspiracy to cripple the Church, all it takes is Rome losing control of the Bishops. There has been no Masonic conspiracy to destroy Catholicism in my diocese! Our Archbishops have been total losers! Masons had nothing to do with it. Our previous Abp. led the cause to allow altargirls at Mass - does anyone think he was motivated by Masonic plots? Of course not. The crazy nuns who have ruined catechesis - are they all Masons? No, of course they are not. The Masons have nothing to do with this.


#16

Who needs Mason’s when you got liberals. I will say I can’t prove it but I do believe Masonism is at the core of a lot of problems where you’ll find Satan well entrenched.


#17

Oy, vey.


#18

thought you might enjoy that :extrahappy::yup:. With that said saying there are no conspiracies is just about as silly as saying everything is, on both sides there must be a balance


#19

Thanks, historyb, you took the words right out of my keyboard.

I have found the Traditional Mass and many traditionalists to be very stable and clear at times amongst the muddled, smorgasbord-like Catholics who reinvent the Church every time a new political fad appears. I was part of that muddle. Political and religious “conspiracies” or “movements” do exist. Some changes are not progress. Mistakes, misguidance, and misdirection happen and has happened in the history of the papacy. I appreciate it when someone “minds the store” and reminds us how much has rampantly changed in our Church. While I am not nostalgic for the 1950’s, I see how the world has become more unstable and especially how many American Catholics have “bred” or exited themselves down to a much smaller group than in my mother’s days. Has anyone seen a full church lately or attended a recent ordination? Only at the Latin masses and in the traditional parishes…

Masonic thought, symbolism, and lore is creeping into plays, books, movies, and culture with the repetitive statement that masonic thought has been long suppressed and this is why we are so confused about sexuality, self, sexuality, government, sexuality, ad nauseum. Conspiracy? Or just a bunch of lazy hedonists stupidly repeating the same stuff their college professor mouthed?

Traditionalists can get pretty “out there” at times with their conspiracies but so can the liberals, neo-cons, progressives, “new order” types. Pay attention. Something is going on.

Keep praying and receiving the sacraments in as traditional and sacred a setting as one can. And keep trying to discern the truth around you. Read Belloc, especially “Six Characters of the Reformation”. Suddenly the word “conspiracy” seems less dubious after reading him.


#20

All one really has to do is compare and contrast the Masonic world view with the Catholic world view and see that they are diometrically opposed. I mean, isn’t the religious pluralism we live in today, the secularism that forces religion to be “privatized” and outside of political influence, the indifferentism that makes “one religion as good as another” kind of the hallmarks of what the masons were fighting for in all the revolutions of the past few hundred years and the core of their beliefs even today?

I’ve never heard that.

No, but it is still Church teaching that one can’t be a member of a masonic organization. That was clarified once againt not too long ago I believe.

Those darned traditionalists! There they go reading catholic stuff from before VII again!!!

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad


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