Conservative and Traditional Catholicism Compared

I don’t know that I agree with all of it, but if you haven’t already seen this (it’s not new), it’s an interesting read. What do you think of this analysis? Good points, bad points?:

[/FONT]Conservative and Traditional Catholicism Compared

I tend a agree… Here are some points that hit home as very true

The traditionalist knows he is an extremist to the eyes of the world but does not care, because the gift of his faith is more important than what others think of him.

The liturgists realize the New Mass is new, the liberals realize the New Mass is new, everyone in the Church realizes the New Mass is new except for the conservatives

The traditionalist has the hope to be authentic, which is what he seeks: a way of living that aspires to the fullness of appreciation of the Catholic Thing which is beyond temporal and local considerations, religion made a way of life.

false irenicism in which we have replaced the Nicene Creed with the Nice Creed and we no longer believe in the mission of the Church to bring all to Jesus Christ in the fullness of truth…The traditionalist ignores all of this, as he is sure in his faith and wants to bring it to others who then become confused by a Church that drowns herself in inscrutable verbiage about whether it really is the true Church or not.

I am proud to say that I am a Catholic Traditionalist

It is an honor for me to be labeled a Traditionalists. I do not deny I resist all the devastation that has been heaped upon Holy Mother Church by modernists.

It sounds like typical blather which resolves nothing. It’s full of statements that may well be truthful way out on the margin, but even that’s useless.
The poor soul has lived in Rome too long.

In summary, I wouldn’t print it out to save for posterity. It will be lost in oblivia.

we must all search for the truth

That just about summarizes his position…

Well, if we are still searcing after 2000ys, then we won’t likely find it in the next 2000ys.

I think we have and have had the theological/moral truth and have no need to search for it down some endless boggy foggy path.
I mean, here’s a nice glass of pure grape juice, it only has a tablespoon of arsenic. Can’t we all just drink it and enjoy the grapey truth part of it …hmm. Here, have some.
You go right ahead.

IMHO, of course…you asked, I responded.

I think it’s an honest attempt to quantify both sides’ aspirations and concerns. The soul who wrote it is obviously fed up with the anathemas on both sides. I think it deserves reading, if nothing else, to convey to others what the basics are - not to find a solution.

The author seems to use “Conservative” for “uncritical follower of John Paul II”.

Actually there are many reasons why a conservative might want to dissociate himself from the traditional liturgy. He might be sympathetic but unwilling to be associated with a schism, he might see the issue as a distraction, he might accept that he is unlikely to be given permission to celebrate the traditional Mass and see it as his duty to take a lead from his bishop, he might believe that John Paul II was such a good pope that he would have reintroduced the traditional rite had it been a good thing, he might believe that Mass in the vernacular is better than Mass in Latin, he might see traditionalists as socially divisive.

The TLM has nothing to do with Schism. Many Good Catholics love this Mass as it is very Catholic.

The way that we worship God is paramount to our beliefs – Hardy a distraction to any concerned catholic. Look at the impact on the belief in the real presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist has dropped over the last 40 years.

If only his bishop would take the lead from the Holy Father in allowing the Mass

Fair… But JPII has made many mistakes as pope.

These are different Masses with different focuses ( God vs Community). Language is a very small difference as the NO can be said in Latin

Hey I guess that means Jesus would spend time with us

:wink:

That may be true although our love for tradition must not and must never be an excuse for schism.

I am a Traditionalist who attends an Indult Mass … Am I in schism?

To constantly equate the TLM with Schism is intellectually dishonest and very uncatholic in lacking charity with those who love our mother church. The TLM has 1500 years as the Roman Rite and should be respected.

Also it has been said many times by Vatican officials that SSPX is not schism but not regularized either… I pray that will happen soon.

I like traditionalism, what it authentically stands for, but I have reservations with regards the so-called “tradtionalists”, at least some of those that I have encountered in this forum who are seemingly convinced that God, despite His omniscience, understands only Latin; that the Catholic Church stopped dead and frozen in its tracks in 1568 A.D. owing to an amateurish and selective reading of what to them is an immutable Quo Primum; and displaying an external religious piety unfortunately, but curiously blended in a bizarre concoction with cynicism and suspiciousness, with regards most of the Pope’s actions and pronouncements.

No one here says that ALL traditionalists are schismatics, BUT definitely there are those who are.

So what?

There are many more people who attend the NO Mass who are in schism with what the Church teaches – may are out right apostates. Does that make attending the NO mass Schematic or an apostate?

Again …The TLM or traditionalism has NOTHING to do with Schism.

Do not slander the TLM or Traditionalism with such statements

While I certainly wouldn’t say that all traditionalists are schismatics, I’m wondering why it’s OK to claim schism where the Church doesn’t say there is one but not OK to claim schism where the Church has said there is one? Mind you, I actually agree that many are probably in schism in both arenas. Apostates is a little over the top for me though.

We all tend to live in this secluded enclave called Catholic Forums.
But when we look outside and go to a host of N O parishes, and when we see the posts of so many newbies coming in here & the nightmare experiences they have at so many of these parishes, and the advice they get on & on about “stay & fight, try to make a difference & bring your parish back to some semblance of Catholic orthodoxy” it becomes apparent that this dialogue of TLM => Schism and NO => heresies is a 2-edged sword indeed. I just believe that the sword is even sharper on the N O side from my own experience in visiting parishes around the country.
If we were to take a poll on belief in the Real Presence with Non-Traditional vs Traditionals what would we find…I’ll venture to say, less than 50% on the NO and greater than 95% in the TLM.
When you constantly here “meal”, “supper”, “table”, what do you expect? vs Sacrifice, Altar.

Confession is another one…line-ups at the Indult parish, empty or even seldom scheduled at many N O parishes. I’ve been there. Sure yours may be an exception, but travel around & get some first hand experience.
What is the weekly attendance of the Tradtional population vs the N O universe. Again, I venture to say less than 35% for Non-Trad and greater than 80% for Trad.
What’s France? Down to 10%? England down to 12%?
If the Trad mindset promotes schism, then the N O must lead to heresy & yes apostasy as in "I “believe, but no longer or seldom attend Mass or embrace much of anything the Church teaches”.

Name a western culture where as B16 bemoans, the catholic mind & practice is not in decline. Name any Indult parish where, when given equal terms of decent time & place, where it is not growing or at least quite stable.
ABC is another. Poll a TLM parish & Non-trad parish and get those results. Same with average family size.
Like I said, we are here in a secure enclave and too often forget the whole catholic universe & what is happening to it.
The Trad mindset is a safe haven for those who desire the Catholic Faith whole & entire even if against the whole world, including the dying Catholicism in Western Culture.
IMHO, of course. Now http://www.emotihost.com/eating1/4.gifhttp://www.emotihost.com/ver1/eating1/1.gif
ps.
Don’t forget Lent…http://www.emotihost.com/ver1/eating1/20.gif

So what?

There are many more people who attend the NO Mass who are in schism with what the Church teaches – may are out right apostates. Does that make attending the NO mass Schematic or an apostate?

**That so-called “liberals” who attend the NO are practically in schism **does not ****justify a traditionalist version of the same act.

Again …The TLM or traditionalism has NOTHING to do with Schism.

Do not slander the TLM or Traditionalism with such statements

Can you point out specifically where and when I actually “slandered” the TLM? I am critical of some traditionalists here, not the TLM or traditionalism. On the contrary, it is the NO that has often been slandered here in this forum. I can cite specific instances of the latter if it would please you, but I’d rather not since it is already off topic and is already common knowledge here in any case.

It is hard to see myself in most of his description of the “conservative” Catholic. It is especially difficult under the heading of “A Cultural Stance”. Catholicism is foreign to my culture, and that is fine with me. I don’t think I can “solve the problem”, I don’t try to blend in, I don’t think “false mystics” describes traditionalists in particular, and I am not “rigid” (I’m fairly laid back).

Uh, ignore the snigger from my spouse over my claim to be laid back. :o

This is perhaps the most insightful analysis I have ever read from a Traditionalist author. I agree with some parts of it, but not all. I would like to place it in dialogue with that long text of Cardinal Hoyos (if I can only find it) to see what insights can be dragged out.

Honestly, if this guy were the head of SSPX instead of Felay, there would be so much more progress.

If the Trad mindset promotes schism, then the N O must lead to heresy & yes apostasy as in "I “believe, but no longer or seldom attend Mass or embrace much of anything the Church teaches”.

But T, you’re missing my point. It’s not good to paint with a broad brush. The schismatic right and the heretical left do exist but there are those caught in the middle who are not either.

The Trad mindset is a safe haven for those who desire the Catholic Faith whole & entire even if against the whole world, including the dying Catholicism in Western Culture.

The traditionalists are not the only people who desire “the Catholic Faith whole & entire” and those who actually believe that they are the only ones with this goal is are annoying to some.

I have a hunch… and a very very very good one that I know who wrote this and I can say that if it is who i think it is- he happens to be one of the most devout, reverent, and orthodox priests I have ever met. His balancing between the spectra of conservativism and traditionalism is well thought and informed especially when I think of where he went to college and seminary.

My point was to show that it was unfair equate attendance in TLM with Schism . Just as it would be unfair to equate attendance at NO with heresy and apostates

As far as Apostates
IMHO – Good example is the Clown Mass
youtube.com/watch?v=NsC4wRPybpA

This has no resemblance of a Catholic Mass ( the suppression of this blasphemy should be supported by conservatives and traditionalist alike)

Lastly…I hate to beat a dead horse but SSPX is not in schism but a irregular state per Vatican

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