Considered married at consummation, prior ceremony/sacrament?


#1

I had a strange conversation with a couple people formerly from a denomination
called revival assembly centre or something similar.
They were insistent that a couple is considered married by God once they have sex,
and that the ceremony/vows are only a witness to something that occurred prior.
They referred briefly to passages in the bible that describe leaving mother/father and cleaving to ... Mat19:5 etc mark 10:7

This is not something I have heard of before.
I am interested in any comments that shed more light on marriage as a commitment/covenant with God/vow

Doesn't mat1:24-25 illustrate Mary/Joseph as husband/wife , without sexual act.


#2

Certainly there are many people with strange ideas out there.

What matters is what the Catholic Church teaches.

Consent of the couple mainfested according to the laws of the Church (if a Catholic is involved) or the state (two non-Catholics) makes marriage.

Consummation makes a valid marriage indissoluable between the baptized.


#3

[quote="panevino, post:1, topic:312734"]
I had a strange conversation with a couple people formerly from a denomination
called revival assembly centre or something similar.

[/quote]

Hmm... not familiar with that denomination. :shrug:

They were insistent that a couple is considered married by God once they have sex,
and that the ceremony/vows are only a witness to something that occurred prior.

Prior? As in 'God ordained it from the beginning of time, and the vows simply witnessed to that ordination, but the marriage began with consummation'?

They referred briefly to passages in the bible that describe leaving mother/father and cleaving to ... Mat19:5 etc mark 10:7

Certainly this demonstrates holiness of marriage, and its indissolubility; but I'm not seeing how it proves the notion of validity at consummation. Even if you think the line "the two shall become one" is talking about (what Shakespeare called) 'the beast with two backs', this passage still doesn't prove the consummation assertion (unless you also try to say that "what God has joined together" is also a reference to consummation, which is ridiculous, given the etymology of the Greek word συνέζευξεν, which literally means "yoked together").

Doesn't mat1:24-25 illustrate Mary/Joseph as husband/wife , without sexual act.

True, but a non-Catholic Christian would likely hold that Mary & Joseph consummated their marriage and had children together. Their interpretation, I'd guess, would assert that v24 shows that Joseph accepted Mary and v25 shows that she became his wife (through consummation).


#4

[quote="panevino, post:1, topic:312734"]
I had a strange conversation with a couple people formerly from a denomination
called revival assembly centre or something similar.
They were insistent that a couple is considered married by God once they have sex,
and that the ceremony/vows are only a witness to something that occurred prior.
They referred briefly to passages in the bible that describe leaving mother/father and cleaving to ... Mat19:5 etc mark 10:7

This is not something I have heard of before.
I am interested in any comments that shed more light on marriage as a commitment/covenant with God/vow

Doesn't mat1:24-25 illustrate Mary/Joseph as husband/wife , without sexual act.

[/quote]

I have heard that this idea of marriage has some basis in Jewish thinking about marriage. However, as as was suggested, what matters to Catholics is what the Church teaches.


#5

This isn't an uncommon idea - I mentioned it in our RCIA class last week and another woman had heard that idea as well. It's based on the passage from St. Paul that talks about the man who sleeps with a prostitute becoming one flesh with her. Both of us in class had Baptist backgrounds.


#6

[quote="Gorgias, post:3, topic:312734"]
Hmm... not familiar with that denomination. :shrug:

Prior? As in 'God ordained it from the beginning of time, and the vows simply witnessed to that ordination, but the marriage began with consummation'?

Certainly this demonstrates holiness of marriage, and its indissolubility; but I'm not seeing how it proves the notion of validity at consummation. Even if you think the line "the two shall become one" is talking about (what Shakespeare called) 'the beast with two backs', this passage still doesn't prove the consummation assertion (unless you also try to say that "what God has joined together" is also a reference to consummation, which is ridiculous, given the etymology of the Greek word συνέζευξεν, which literally means "yoked together").

True, but a non-Catholic Christian would likely hold that Mary & Joseph consummated their marriage and had children together. Their interpretation, I'd guess, would assert that v24 shows that Joseph accepted Mary and v25 shows that she became his wife (through consummation).

[/quote]

Who is they, just wondering... Non Catholic Christians hold her to be the Virgin Mary.


#7

Teaching on that amongst non-Catholic Christians varies immensely, some hold to the view of the apostolic Churches that she was perpetually a virgin. Others teach that she later consumated her marriage with Joseph and had other children.


#8

[quote="Gorgias, post:3, topic:312734"]
Hmm... not familiar with that denomination. :shrug:

[/quote]

it was called a Revival Centre.

Prior? As in 'God ordained it from the beginning of time, and the vows simply witnessed to that ordination, but the marriage began with consummation'?

No, not from beginning of time, i believe they would say by the act of sex, made prior to a ceremony.
So sleeping together makes the couple married. a ceremony afterwards (or before i suppose) is merely a formality that is not efficacious.

Certainly this demonstrates holiness of marriage, and its indissolubility; but I'm not seeing how it proves the notion of validity at consummation. Even if you think the line "the two shall become one" is talking about (what Shakespeare called) 'the beast with two backs', this passage still doesn't prove the consummation assertion (unless you also try to say that "what God has joined together" is also a reference to consummation, which is ridiculous, given the etymology of the Greek word συνέζευξεν, which literally means "yoked together").

thanks

True, but a non-Catholic Christian would likely hold that Mary & Joseph consummated their marriage and had children together. Their interpretation, I'd guess, would assert that v24 shows that Joseph accepted Mary and v25 shows that she became his wife (through consummation).

Understood


#9

True, understood. I read your post again. When read previously, I thought you were inferring that non Catholic Christians didn’t think of her as a Virgin at all. Sorry!! Had a fever of 101 at the time too…


#10

1 Corinthians 6:12-17 (NABRE)

12 “Everything is lawful for me,”* but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is lawful for me,” but I will not let myself be dominated by anything.e
13 “Food for the stomach and the stomach for food,” but God will do away with both the one and the other. The body, however, is not for immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord is for the body;
14 God raised the Lord and will also raise us by his power.f
15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take Christ’s members and make them the members of a prostitute?* Of course notg
16 [Or] do you not know that anyone who joins himself to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For “the two,” it says, “will become one flesh.”h
17 But whoever is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.*("http://www.usccb.org/bible/1corinthians/6/#54006017-i")


#11

I think I have found what I wanted here
Marriage is an integral part of New (Testament) Sacramental Economy.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2tb98.htm

Ephesians 5:20-33
Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ; 21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

And
Mark 10:4-12
And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away. 5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, **For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. 6 But from the beginning **of the creation God made them male and female. 7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; 8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. 9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. 10 And in the house his disciples asked him again of the same matter. 11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. 12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.


#12

DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.