Contradictions or not?


#1

If someone knows some answers to the questions below, it may solve a mistery.
Here is what says in the Bible, about God:

Genesis.1.25 - "And God made the beast of the earth ... and God saw that it was good."
Genesis.1.31 - "And God saw every thing that He had made, and, behold, it was very good."
Genesis.17.1 - "I am God Almighty"

in contradiction with:

Genesis.3.14 - "Because thou hast done this, cursed art thou from among all cattle"
Genesis.3.15 - "And I will put enmity between thee and ..."

Genesis.3.16 - "I will greatly multiply thy pain"
Genesis.6.5 - "And the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."
Genesis.6.6 - "And it repented the LORD that He had made man on the earth"
Genesis.6.7 - "it repenteth Me that I have made them"

If everything was so good in the beginning, why God saw that it was actually really bad what He made ?
After the above contradiction, how much credibility has the God from the Bible and the Bible itself ?


#2

It became bad after the fall from grace.


#3

Sin messed up all Creation, not just Adam and Eve.


#4

Put simply. God created everything good, then man went and screwed it all up. You would know that if you actually read the bible instead of looking at verses out of context.


#5

[quote="believerabcd, post:1, topic:316079"]
If someone knows some answers to the questions below, it may solve a mistery.
Here is what says in the Bible, about God:

Genesis.1.25 - "And God made the beast of the earth ... and God saw that it was good."
Genesis.1.31 - "And God saw every thing that He had made, and, behold, it was very good."
Genesis.17.1 - "I am God Almighty"

in contradiction with:

Genesis.3.14 - "Because thou hast done this, cursed art thou from among all cattle"
Genesis.3.15 - "And I will put enmity between thee and ..."

Genesis.3.16 - "I will greatly multiply thy pain"
Genesis.6.5 - "And the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."
Genesis.6.6 - "And it repented the LORD that He had made man on the earth"
Genesis.6.7 - "it repenteth Me that I have made them"

If everything was so good in the beginning, why God saw that it was actually really bad what He made ?
After the above contradiction, how much credibility has the God from the Bible and the Bible itself ?

[/quote]

What God created was good and beautiful! Satan came to earth, and polluted it all. He seduced us to mortal sin, thus breaking our life giving relationship with God. Through Satan, and sin desease and death entered our world! While man kind rejected God's life giving/blessing presence, he grew in sin, and death. Corrupting the whole world!

Jesus came to pay for our sins, and open the gates of Heaven! Now those who repent, and are baptised can enter into a Holy, life giving, relationship with God again!

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life." John 3:16

Jesus prayed to God about believers; "Father, they are your gift to me." John 17:24 :)


#6

[quote="believerabcd, post:1, topic:316079"]
After the above contradiction, how much credibility has the God from the Bible and the Bible itself ?

[/quote]

I don't know. It has only shaped the last 20 centuries of human civilization, and constitutes the single most solid belief system, one that has always taught people to love their neighbor, not steal, not murder, honor their father and mother, not covet our neighbor's wife...tenets that seem to be the basic of any civilization, and that are yet questioned even by the most renowned of our XXIst Century nations.

This belief system is the only one that speaks to every single human being about a true justice - a justice that we all believe in, yet do not see in this world, if not in a horribly disfigured way - about mercy for those who have made mistakes, about endless second chances, about forgiveness of those who offend as the way for us to be forgiven...

a belief system that approaches the poor and sick, who suffer because of the misdeeds and lack of care of other human beings, and tells them that they are not abandoned or accursed but, rather, that God is especially present within them so that they shall be paid in full of all their sufferings and that other men will be called to treat them as if they, in fact, were God himself.

This is what introduced in the world the term caritas, charity, the idea that we have a duty to help those in need, and in fact to love everyone unconditionally because we are all intrinsically good and the only evil is that of some of our actions - from which comes the fact that anyone can realize that he was wrong, repent, and receive forgiveness and so nobody is judged.

Having seen all of the above and the hope and love that this faith has brought to a suffering world for two millennia, I am moved to argue that this God from the Bible and the Bible itself do have some credibility, and also that if something appears to be in contradiction, there is some possibility that it is an erroneous thought that resulted in my own finite, fallible, and not perfectly knowledgeable mind, and that probably someone in the past 2000 years thought about this and addressed it satisfactorily.


#7

Though I agree completely to the teaches of being good as it is written in many verses in the Bible, there are passages in the Bible, that raise some questions, like the following :
- Is it really possible that something completely very good (Genesis.1.31 : "every thing that He had made ... it was very good"), do something so bad (Genesis.3.4 - Genesis.3.6 : not believing God) ?
- Can the very good(as were Adam and Eve, before Genesis.3.1) transform by itself to bad, or the good should remain good forever ?


#8

=believerabcd;10398527]If someone knows some answers to the questions below, it may solve a mistery.
Here is what says in the Bible, about God:

Genesis.1.25 - "And God made the beast of the earth ... and God saw that it was good."
Genesis.1.31 - "And God saw every thing that He had made, and, behold, it was very good."
Genesis.17.1 - "I am God Almighty"

in contradiction with:

Genesis.3.14 - "Because thou hast done this, cursed art thou from among all cattle"
Genesis.3.15 - "And I will put enmity between thee and ..."

Genesis.3.16 - "I will greatly multiply thy pain"
Genesis.6.5 - "And the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."
Genesis.6.6 - "And it repented the LORD that He had made man on the earth"
Genesis.6.7 - "it repenteth Me that I have made them"

If everything was so good in the beginning, why God saw that it was actually really bad what He made ?
After the above contradiction, how much credibility has the God from the Bible and the Bible itself ?

God made MADE it GOOD

Man overruled God to make it BAD:o


#9

[quote="Regina_Love, post:5, topic:316079"]
Satan came to earth, and polluted it all. He seduced us to mortal sin, thus breaking our life giving relationship with God.

[/quote]

If Adam and Eve didn't do any wrong thing in believing God, then weren't they punished(Genesis.3.16-Genesis.3.24) erroneously by God, for a thing that they didn't do ?
If they indeed have done a wrong thing, then there there is the situation present in my last comment: the "very good" doing a wrong thing ?


#10

[quote="believerabcd, post:9, topic:316079"]
If Adam and Eve didn't do any wrong thing in believing God, then weren't they punished(Genesis.3.16-Genesis.3.24) erroneously by God, for a thing that they didn't do ?
If they indeed have done a wrong thing, then there there is the situation present in my last comment: the "very good" doing a wrong thing ?

[/quote]

Adam and Eve disobeyed God, that is the wrong that they did. God gave them the free will to choose, and they chose to go against God, to go against that which is good. They weren't punished for believing in God, they were punished for disobeying God, just like your parents would punish you for disobeying them.


#11

[quote="believerabcd, post:9, topic:316079"]
If Adam and Eve didn't do any wrong thing in believing God, then weren't they punished(Genesis.3.16-Genesis.3.24) erroneously by God, for a thing that they didn't do ?
If they indeed have done a wrong thing, then there there is the situation present in my last comment: the "very good" doing a wrong thing ?

[/quote]

They were tempted to do something. Because of this, they could be forgiven. It was not their initiative to do something wrong - they simply believed something, without knowing what they were doing. They do have guilt in this, of course.

That's what happens when you are free to chose rather than being a mindless slave. Our forefathers - like many of us today - were made believe that X was better than Y. They trusted the visible rather than the invisible, the physical rather than the spiritual. They trusted a creature rather than the promises of the Creator. They made a choice. That choice was rooted on very erroneous premises. It was a bad choice. They were not evil, but their choice, like a seed, became the root of many equally wrong choices.

I invite you to read the Summa contra Gentiles of Thomas Aquinas for a greater understanding of the meaning of being all good - or being created all good - and yet being able to choose what is wrong or evil.

As for God's punishment, God took into account the fact that their sin, their error, was not - so to speak - their own initiative, but the result of an enemy's temptation, and of the enticement of the vanity of this world. He took it into account by offering mankind the means for obtaining forgiveness. The most basic understanding of the reason behind the name evangelion, good message: where a man and a woman had chosen to distrust God and do what was wrong, another man and another woman chose to trust in God and do what was right, despite the great toll that was to be paid in terms of persecution and sacrifice.

However, since man (as you can understand) had made many such wrong choices and offenses (and many still would), offenses that, for the sake of justice, carried a penance, God, by an act of mercy that was purely his free choice, decided that He would take the full penance on His own shoulders, thus He became that man, not because God was needed in order to fulfill God's law - and Christ points this out very clearly, as do the apostles and all the saints who, being ordinary men and women, perfectly fulfilled what was right - but because God was needed in order to fulfill God's justice for the sake of all creation past, present, and future.

This is what we term the Good News, or Gospel: forgiveness of "original sin" (the sin of Adam and Eve) for all the nations, a promise of eternal life of the soul, and the gift (gift) of a Spirit that allows every man to do what is good, a Spirit that is particularly at work where weakness is present, and that does the greatest works through those who humble themselves and show trust in the Creator, even in the face of sorrows and persecution.

"The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried." The issue with taking that step, that risk of falling in love with the God that shines through Christ, is that one is forced to see himself accountable to such an infinitely lovely Spouse, and thus is moved to radically change his life and endeavors, and is moved to consider many things as worthless vanity and to embrace other things, even at the cost of sacrifice and persecution, simply because they are truly good things. All can do so, many are called to do so, yet few embrace this. It is not a message of comfort, but of peace amidst tribulation, the same peace that allowed a crucified man to look up to the heavens and cry: "Forgive them, Father!"


#12

=believerabcd;10401755]If Adam and Eve didn't do any wrong thing in believing God, then weren't they punished(Genesis.3.16-Genesis.3.24) erroneously by God, for a thing that they didn't do ?
If they indeed have done a wrong thing, then there there is the situation present in my last comment: the "very good" doing a wrong thing ?

No friend you are off track and reaching conclusions that simply ARE NOT possible for God.

God is ALL Good and Perfect: God simply CANNOT ERROR!

Please Don't try to blame God for mans freewill and informed choices. Adam and Even FREELY choose to attack God's Goodness and HAD to be punished for it.:shrug:

God Bless,
pat/PJM


#13

[quote="bzkoss236, post:10, topic:316079"]
They weren't punished for believing in God

[/quote]

Instead of:

[quote="believerabcd, post:9, topic:316079"]
If Adam and Eve didn't do any wrong thing in believing God

[/quote]

a more appropriate formulation of what I wanted to express there, is: "If Adam and Eve didn't do any wrong thing with their believing in God".


#14

So, the “very good”(Adam, Eve) freely did a bad thing ?


#15

[quote="believerabcd, post:14, topic:316079"]
So, the "very good"(Adam, Eve) freely did a bad thing ?

[/quote]

That's the issue with freedom. Being very good does not mean being unable to choose what is not good. It means that God, in creating their soul, did not put anything evil in His creation.

As for "did a bad thing", here's the issue: they did objectively do a bad thing, but from their standpoint, they chose what they thought was a good thing. The temptation was: if you do X, you will be like God. A very good thing indeed! The issue was that the premise was terribly wrong: the premise was that God was lying to them. In choosing what appeared to be a good thing, they at the same time chose to distrust in God.

They would have done subjectively a bad thing had they, on their own initiative, chosen to distrust God. In this case, they trusted a creature's words and were enticed to believe that X was more good than Y. That is consistent with a good nature. Nobody claims that they had perfect intellect - only a good soul.

Look, if you really want to heat up this argument, then you should not focus on man's good nature, but on the one that tempted them. You should be astonished, if anything, at the perfection of the pure spirits and on their moral testing. An angel has an almost perfect intellect, short only of God, and yet a lead angel and many, many more chose directly and subjectively to act against God. Now that is quite amazing, that a pure spirit, created very good, endowed with an extraordinary intellect and an extraordinary knowledge of God's nature, would still chose to go against his Creator. Yet we know they did. We don't just know it from the Bible, we actually know it from what you'd call empirical evidence. So that is even more extraordinary: not that man, created very good, did something bad, but that in fact the devil and the demons themselves, who are - so to speak - evil itself, have been created very good and yet by their own free choice became beings that only do pure evil.

The big difference here is even more evident: the choice of the pure spirits was direct, so they do not and cannot repent. The choice of men was indirect, so they can repent and be forgiven. That's the whole point of the redemption in Christ and of the Good News and of the spiritual warfare between men and the fallen angels.


#16

[quote="believerabcd, post:14, topic:316079"]
So, the "very good"(Adam, Eve) freely did a bad thing ?

[/quote]

Adam, and Eve were created with great potential to love God, and share in his creation, love, and unity. *God loves us soooo perfectly He gives us "free will" to choose whether to love Him back! * satan is wiser than humans, and twisted their reasoning. he used lies, and emotion to convince them to choose sin instead of belief in God. Our gift of free will, necessitates that there will be sin among us for a time. God allows this for a season, so that we may each choose to enter into a loving relationship with God. To be his forever in Heaven! God's perfect kingdom is in the act of coming now, in those who follow his will. They are enriched by his daily blessings. His kingdom is not yet complete, until Jesus returns. Then will come a time when sin, disease, and death will cease. Then all will be made perfect in God's kingdom.


#17

[quote="R_C, post:15, topic:316079"]
Nobody claims that they had perfect intellect - only a good soul.

[/quote]

If they weren't perfect, then that explains why they didn't obey God's word.
But the term "every thing"(Genesis.1.31) should not mean something like: just a part, only this but not that, here but not there, only macroscopic, only what is seen from a point of view and not from other points of view.
Although it may seem exaggerated, "every thing" should mean really every bit of any thing that exists, which also includes every bit of them(Adam and Eve), and hence it means "completely all".
Therefore, the fact that every thing was good in the beginning, looks like they(serpent, Adam, Eve) should have been completely good or perfect, but it turned out that they weren't so.


#18

=believerabcd;10405499]So, the "very good"(Adam, Eve) freely did a bad thing ?

:D EXACTLY!

BUT it was THEIR choice; freely made; not a design fault.:thumbsup:

God Bless


#19

[quote="believerabcd, post:7, topic:316079"]
- Can the very good(as were Adam and Eve, before Genesis.3.1) transform by itself to bad, or the good should remain good forever ?

[/quote]

There is only one that is perfectly good, "THE GOOD"; The I AM.

That being said, what you call "the very good" did not transform itself to bad. It separated itself from THE GOOD for its own selfish interest.

I also believe what is known as "the origional sin" was a complex response to fear. Here is what I mean:

Adam was commanded to "keep" the garden. The word keep is the same word as guard (get yourself an interlinear bible and a lexicon). That begs the question, guard it from what? Now this serpent (this is the same creature as appears in rev 12 and is referred to as a great dragon) comes and starts messing with adam's wife. (Where did this creature come from, if everything in the garden was good???")

What does the dragon say? He tells them that God lied to them. He tells them that they will surely NOT die if they eat of the forbidden fruit. Adam is fearful. He doesn't want to die. Here's this great honkin' dragon telling his wife to eat the fruit. He decides to **doubt God **and eat the fruit.

Adam failed to guard the garden. He failed to guard his wife, He couldn't even guard himself. He doubted God's word.

I think that even though we consider ourselves to be "good", we often fail to act with that goodness. This does not make us "bad", it only makes us sinful (separated from "The Good").

God is always wanting us to turn and turn and turn back to Him. He wouldn't want us if we were bad. He only wants what is good. Therefore, because He wants us, we must be good.


#20

[quote="believerabcd, post:17, topic:316079"]
If they weren't perfect, then that explains why they didn't obey God's word.

[/quote]

It does indeed explain it.

What exactly does Genesis 1:31 say? Going back to the earliest Bible:

Viditque Deus cuncta quae fecit et erant valde bona

This does not say "perfect". It says that all things created - angels, man and woman, all creatures, in fact the whole creation - were very good (from validus, "strong", and bonus, "good". Not perfect.

Scripture itself says: "I have seen a limit to all perfection" - that limit being God, who (as Thomas Aquinas brilliantly shows) is Perfection itself. This is why the protagonist of the book of Job says about God: "though I am blameless, he would prove me perverse" - no creature, no matter how good, can claim perfection.

We go one step further, and state that the only perfection is that which is unchanging, a perfect that precedes all imperfect and becomes the measure of all comparison. This is God. Man, on the other hand, though created very good, is not created perfect, for this would mean equality with God, which reason negates in many ways. To begin with, imperfection does not contradict goodness: for "things that merely exist are not imperfect because of an imperfection in absolute being"; rather, "they participate in being through a certain particular and most imperfect mode". In Scripture, only God is, unchanging, a motor immobile.

God does not create man equal to Him, but "in his image and likeness". "It is more fitting to say that a creature is like God rather than the converse" because "that which is found in God perfectly is found in other things according to a certain diminished participation, the basis on which the likeness is observed belongs to God absolutely, but not to the creature. "

Now consider the root of the temptation: "you will be like God". Forget for a moment the erroneous premise that was not taken into consideration by very good beings of imperfect intellect. The temptation reflects something profound that, in fact, is proof of man's goodness.

"A created thing tends toward the divine likeness through its operation. Now, through its operation, one thing becomes the cause of another. Therefore, in this way, also, do things tend toward the divine likeness, in that they are the causes of other things. ...] it is as a result of the goodness of God that He confers being on all things ...] So, things generally desire to become like God in this respect, by being the causes of other things. ...] by the fact that it is the cause of another, a thing is ordered toward the good, for only the good is directly caused in itself; evil is merely caused accidentally ...] Therefore, to be the cause of other things is good. Now, a thing tends toward the divine likeness according to each good to which it inclines, since any created thing is good through participation in divine goodness."

But then why was something so wrong done?

Evil - as Aquinas shows - is not an essence, but a privation, a negation in a substance, and occurs in things apart from the intention of the agents - that is, evil is different from the good which every agent intends. What this means is that the intention of the agents was to do something good - in fact, something in accordance to their good nature, as shown: to try to be like God. Evil was a result apart from intention.

The only way for this to be possible, then is that "a defect in an effect and in an action results from some defect in the principles of the action". Even further: evil cannot exist by itself, since it has no essence, and thus every evil is based on some good. We say that every evil is in a good thing, because, evil being a privation, the privation which is evil is present in a good thing, and is called evil due to the fact that it causes injury to the good.

Finally, having seen the root of man's goodness and of the temptation and the accidental evil that resulted, one thing remains yet to be said: how could this have happened. And the answer - always by the solid arguments of Aquinas - is that evil is caused only by the good, since evil, not a definite being, cannot be the cause of anything. Of course, we emphasize what was already stated: evil is *accidentally *caused by the good.

since reason is able to apprehend many goods and a multiplicity of ends, and since for each thing there is a proper end, there will be, then, for the will an end and a first motivating object which is not merely any good, but some determinate good.

Hence, when the will inclines to act as moved by the apprehension of reason, presenting a proper good to it, the result is a fitting action.

But when the will breaks forth into action, at the apprehension of sense cognition, or of reason itself presenting some other good at variance with its proper good, the result in the action of the will is a moral fault.

Hence, a defect of ordering to reason and to a proper end precedes a fault of action in the will:

  • in regard to reason, in the case of the will inclining, on the occasion of a sudden sense apprehension, toward a good that is on the level of sensory pleasure;

  • and in regard to a proper end, in the case when reason encounters in its deliberation some good which is not, at this time or under these conditions, really good, and yet the will inclines toward it, as if it were a proper good.

This is original sin.


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